Depth and translucency question . .

[Edy]

To make shde tabs use 2 pieces of 3mm thick plixey glass 25mmx60mm,cut a U shape on one end and attach the two pieces togother with a small bolt and locknut by drilling a small hole at the end of the pieces , you can shape the end of the upper piece by the model trimmer with water running to resemble the thin incisal ( gradually thinned)

You have a picture of the tabs ?

 

[Tayebdental]

This is what a lab-made shade tab tool looks like. e out of blue plexiglass.

 

[Daniela]

question about translucency with ex3 and czr.


My build up with noritake is like this :
a decent tooth shaping with body ( dentin ) porcelain , i put E1 ( enamel ) only on the tip of the incisal , i fire like that 1st , then on the second i do a very thin lusters over the hole crown and fire , 3d fire and 4th with lusters too if needed corrections , with this build up i get no depth and no translucency , maybe some tips ?

I do my posteriors in 1 bake only, and the chart below is a good start to get life into your crowns. If you find that you don’t want to buy all the Luster powders LT1 works very good on all shades and Lt yellow realy helps the shade A2. My luster layer is 1mm and all corrections I do ( if I have to) is with LT1 ( B,F, O L) and LT natural interproximal.
On anterior crowns I use 2 dentins, 2-3 enamels and 4 lusters ( mesial LTnatural, LTo facial, LT1 distal and any correction ). I am not crazy about the mamelon shades but I love the incisal aureola covered by a layer of Lt yellow.
This is a very basic build up and works for me. I hope it helps.

 

[Car 54]

rkm, i think i will finally buy a tab mold to experiment with tabs for a few days , and make some notes with what i build.

car 54 what you mean cut lusters with tx ? u mean his mixing 50/50 tx with Lt0 ? ,u know what i noticed ? when i put a thinner layer of luster i get a better depth , but i will try the tx mix.
and value i heared it so many times and still it didn't enter my brain well , i never understood what value means so anyway i would not know what to do with the tx to maintain it lol.

Hi Edy,

It looks like you got some good posts from people who are currnently using Noritake, so they can give you better hands on advice. As far as trying for more translucency, what you can do is start with TX and Luster, the LT1 seems to be the standard go to Luster and mix it 1:1 with TX, or the next step less translucent of the std translucents, depending on how much room you have to work with, and how translucent you want it to be. From my understanding Noritake put just a bit of white in the TX, to help people not lower the value to much i.e. to not get into trouble to easily. So it won’t fire up as clear as the Creation CLO tab I’ve shown below (I flipped it over to help it lay flat) That also gives you a reading if your firing the right temp, and have good vacuum. Shade tabs are very helpful here, in giving you a head start of seeing how translucent (etc.) your mixing combinations are.



Yes, value can be a bit tricky, but to simplify it, think of high value being clouds, high up there, white and bright. Think of low value as dirt, dark. What happens when you use to much translucency (i.e. to much straight TX, or clears) is the light isn't scattered as a more opaque material (Inc. porc, lusters, bodies) would do, and can become more low value, especially in the mouth, where it picks up the darker oral environment, and the clears and real translucent porcs. can pick up on this "darkness", and lower the value of your crown in the mouth. It is more than that, but maybe someone else will follow up as needed.

Tayebdental did a nice job in making a replica of the discontinued Williams shade tab maker (at least I didn’t see it on their web page) and may give you thinner, better tab thickness. As the Williams scissor one below creates thicker tabs which can be kind of deceiving in that the “Inc” edge, thin edge, is about 1mm thick, while the back end is approx. 2.5 mm thick. So you can tend to see more chroma than you would in 5/10ths-7/10ths of normal layering of our porcelains. Even though I do use those for shade taking, it’s something to keep in mind. That’s why the round adjustable tab creator is better in that you can make tabs closer to the thickness of your build ups, 5-7/10ths thick tabs, and get a better idea of what you may have to tweak to get there. As rkm mentioned, tabs on bottles is a quick visual reference.




The Ivoclar Chromascope shade guides (the white one in the middle) are pretty cheap, and you can cut the plastic tabs off the back, abrade the surface where you want to glue your porc. tabs, and E6000 clear adhesive works pretty good to glue the tabs to the guide. These plus the 3D, and Vita classical guide, are what I use to take shades with.

 

[Edy]

I do my posteriors in 1 bake only, and the chart below is a good start to get life into your crowns. If you find that you don’t want to buy all the Luster powders LT1 works very good on all shades and Lt yellow realy helps the shade A2. My luster layer is 1mm and all corrections I do ( if I have to) is with LT1 ( B,F, O L) and LT natural interproximal.
On anterior crowns I use 2 dentins, 2-3 enamels and 4 lusters ( mesial LTnatural, LTo facial, LT1 distal and any correction ). I am not crazy about the mamelon shades but I love the incisal aureola covered by a layer of Lt yellow.
This is a very basic build up and works for me. I hope it helps.
View attachment 5144

Hi Daniela , the chart looks interesting , i will give it a try in my next crowns but how do layer the powders? like its shown in the chart ? first the dentin then enamel on tips , lets say we have A3 , you put Tx and over it Lt0 ?

 

[Edy]

This is what a lab-made shade tab tool looks like. e out of blue plexiglass.

nice shade tab, material is like patty ? because it looks so smooth

 

[Edy]

Hi Edy,

It looks like you got some good posts from people who are currnently using Noritake, so they can give you better hands on advice. As far as trying for more translucency, what you can do is start with TX and Luster, the LT1 seems to be the standard go to Luster and mix it 1:1 with TX, or the next step less translucent of the std translucents, depending on how much room you have to work with, and how translucent you want it to be. From my understanding Noritake put just a bit of white in the TX, to help people not lower the value to much i.e. to not get into trouble to easily. So it won’t fire up as clear as the Creation CLO tab I’ve shown below (I flipped it over to help it lay flat) That also gives you a reading if your firing the right temp, and have good vacuum. Shade tabs are very helpful here, in giving you a head start of seeing how translucent (etc.) your mixing combinations are.



Yes, value can be a bit tricky, but to simplify it, think of high value being clouds, high up there, white and bright. Think of low value as dirt, dark. What happens when you use to much translucency (i.e. to much straight TX, or clears) is the light isn't scattered as a more opaque material (Inc. porc, lusters, bodies) would do, and can become more low value, especially in the mouth, where it picks up the darker oral environment, and the clears and real translucent porcs. can pick up on this "darkness", and lower the value of your crown in the mouth. It is more than that, but maybe someone else will follow up as needed.

Tayebdental did a nice job in making a replica of the discontinued Williams shade tab maker (at least I didn’t see it on their web page) and may give you thinner, better tab thickness. As the Williams scissor one below creates thicker tabs which can be kind of deceiving in that the “Inc” edge, thin edge, is about 1mm thick, while the back end is approx. 2.5 mm thick. So you can tend to see more chroma than you would in 5/10ths-7/10ths of normal layering of our porcelains. Even though I do use those for shade taking, it’s something to keep in mind. That’s why the round adjustable tab creator is better in that you can make tabs closer to the thickness of your build ups, 5-7/10ths thick tabs, and get a better idea of what you may have to tweak to get there. As rkm mentioned, tabs on bottles is a quick visual reference.




The Ivoclar Chromascope shade guides (the white one in the middle) are pretty cheap, and you can cut the plastic tabs off the back, abrade the surface where you want to glue your porc. tabs, and E6000 clear adhesive works pretty good to glue the tabs to the guide. These plus the 3D, and Vita classical guide, are what I use to take shades with.

waw , loved the value explanation man, now i always will have the clouds example in mind when i forget what the value means , so if i get too much whitten teeth in the mouth , then i go and put more translucency to lower the white , i got it !
And what a beautiful collection of tabs you have , this makes me want to start doing tabs for each of my bottles at least . Ty Car

 

[Principefly]

This shade tabs might come in handy .. shame the price!

 

[Car 54]

waw , loved the value explanation man, now i always will have the clouds example in mind when i forget what the value means , so if i get too much whitten teeth in the mouth , then i go and put more translucency to lower the white , i got it !
And what a beautiful collection of tabs you have , this makes me want to start doing tabs for each of my bottles at least . Ty Car

Thanks Yet, if the value needed to be lowered, I would try to intentionally go a little deeper in the build up, say a lower value body (if needed) and maybe a better starting place in your daily work (as you can cut back and modify easier) would be to use a lower value Inc, like E3 under your translucent (when needed, or wanted) Luster mix. Lower value tends to look better when it comes from within, where it makes the Inc look like it has depth. Overlaying trans/TX to try to achieve that, would be harder to control, and not have the same effect as a grayer Inc with effects, or ILS on it, that will also help to scatter light. I wouldn't try to let a translucent overlay be my total determining factor in trying to lower value.

The idea of translucents and clears lowering value, is more of something to watch out for, something that can cause value issues in the mouth, the "phenomenon of" to much translucent or clears, and really shouldn't be used to intentionally that way to in our daily work just to lower the value, as it can be to unpredictable of how low the value really will be until you get it in the mouth. Better is to do it with Inc, modifiers, ILS etc that you can see in hand, at the bench and have an idea against a shade tab reference of your value. Then you can get the finishing touch with you LTs, LT with translucent overlay if it needs to be a little brighter, lower value or more translucent.

Hope this helped

 

[Tayebdental]

Now if you want to make a circular shade tabs just make a 10mm hole!!.

 

[Car 54]

that's good, cleaver and creative ingenuity

 

[Tayebdental]

that's good, cleaver and creative ingenuity

Thanks car 54, remember my friend, we are not just technicians we are magicians!!

 

[Car 54]

lol, yes... if only the Dr.'s knew how many times we've done things behind the scenes in our labs, with ingenuity and creativity as you have shown, to make a case a success...

 

[Edy]

Thanks Yet, if the value needed to be lowered, I would try to intentionally go a little deeper in the build up, say a lower value body (if needed) and maybe a better starting place in your daily work (as you can cut back and modify easier) would be to use a lower value Inc, like E3 under your translucent (when needed, or wanted) Luster mix. Lower value tends to look better when it comes from within, where it makes the Inc look like it has depth. Overlaying trans/TX to try to achieve that, would be harder to control, and not have the same effect as a grayer Inc with effects, or ILS on it, that will also help to scatter light. I wouldn't try to let a translucent overlay be my total determining factor in trying to lower value.

The idea of translucents and clears lowering value, is more of something to watch out for, something that can cause value issues in the mouth, the "phenomenon of" to much translucent or clears, and really shouldn't be used to intentionally that way to in our daily work just to lower the value, as it can be to unpredictable of how low the value really will be until you get it in the mouth. Better is to do it with Inc, modifiers, ILS etc that you can see in hand, at the bench and have an idea against a shade tab reference of your value. Then you can get the finishing touch with you LTs, LT with translucent overlay if it needs to be a little brighter, lower value or more translucent.

Hope this helped

Gocha you! so to use trans/tx only as a last touch up if needed. how is your build up ? body+cervical on cervical area and body porc to form tooth ->enamel on tip->lusters(Lt1 on cerv and Lt0 incisal and t-blue angle lines) ? that what i do , you add over the lusters the trans/tx you mean ??

and what Inc,ILS mean

 

[Edy]

Now if you want to make a circular shade tabs just make a 10mm hole!!.

indeed magician ^^ , i was wondering what is the blue material ? silicon ? or patty

 

[Car 54]

Gocha you! so to use trans/tx only as a last touch up if needed. how is your build up ? body+cervical on cervical area and body porc to form tooth ->enamel on tip->lusters(Lt1 on cerv and Lt2 incisal and t-blue angle lines) ? that what i do , you add over the lusters the trans/tx you mean ??

and what Inc,ILS mean

I'll get to the rest later, sorry if my typing may be a little confusing. ILS is Noritake's Internal Live Stain. This is where you can stain effects on top of you "canvas" build up (the point right before your final luster overlay, like staining to lower value). A couple of good books to consider are, A Collection of Ceramic Works, by the master himself, Hitoshi Aoshima, and Design by Aoshima and Dr. Chiche (this book has more image "cookbook" recipes on using ILS) I believe both are still in print? and can be found at Quintessence web site. Below image, taken from this link: EX-3 /NORITAKE DENTAL MATERIALS

 

[martintay]

Great replys- your one lucky man Edy ! Shareing and help at its best- Great stuff !!!

 

[Edy]

I'll get to the rest later, sorry if my typing may be a little confusing. ILS is Noritake's Internal Live Stain. This is where you can stain effects on top of you "canvas" build up (the point right before your final luster overlay, like staining to lower value). A couple of good books to consider are, A Collection of Ceramic Works, by the master himself, Hitoshi Aoshima, and Design by Aoshima and Dr. Chiche (this book has more image "cookbook" recipes on using ILS) I believe both are still in print? and can be found at Quintessence web site. Below image, taken from this link: EX-3 /NORITAKE DENTAL MATERIALS

Lovely i didnot knew u can play with value with internal stain too , i will check those books ty a lot ...what is the difference of drawing on canvas and drawing on paper ? i just watched a yt video and the man is drawing pretty normally to me on canvas .(i wonder if internal stain of the czr can be used on ex3 , i got a full upper bridge now A 3.5 , would love to try some mamelons ,its cervical 3 IS , its written on it Internal stain , not Internal live stain , is it the same ?)

 

[Edy]

Great replys- your one lucky man Edy ! Shareing and help at its best- Great stuff !!!

YES! i love you guys !! i hope one day i can pass this to others interested to improve.Sharing and help at its best you said it friend.

 

[martintay]

Lovely i didnot knew u can play with value with internal stain too , i will check those books ty a lot ...what is the difference of drawing on canvas and drawing on paper ? i just watched a yt video and the man is drawing pretty normally to me on canvas .(i wonder if internal stain of the czr can be used on ex3 , i got a full upper bridge now A 3.5 , would love to try some mamelons ,its cervical 3 IS , its written on it Internal stain , not Internal live stain , is it the same ?)

I haven`t tried czr/ ILS on EX3 but the rep said it would be fine. I know the CTE is different but because the amount used is so small i think it would be ok