Depth and translucency question . .

[Edy]

question about translucency with ex3 and czr.

i've been working with noritake on zirconia and metal for almost a year , i told to a friend of mine about noritake and how i liked it , he got some bottles and his working with it like 2 months now , his complaining that all his effects and mamelons build ups are all covered and not seen so well as he had with ceramco 3 and shofu .He loves how noritake handles and how it gives him no cracks after fires , but his always tell me that shofu is not forgiving but at least in the end it has a very nice depth and translucency . I so far was not looking so focused on this issue until i build an inline crown and a noritake crown and put them one near the other , his right , inline shows more 3d and deep porcelain , noritake show me something like plastic like crown .My question is how can i fix it ? because i dont want to change porcelain , it made my life much easier with lack of problems and no inter proximal cracks inline and d.sign give me all the time after firing .
My build up with noritake is like this :
a decent tooth shaping with body ( dentin ) porcelain , i put E1 ( enamel ) only on the tip of the incisal , i fire like that 1st , then on the second i do a very thin lusters over the hole crown and fire , 3d fire and 4th with lusters too if needed corrections , with this build up i get no depth and no translucency , maybe some tips ?

 

[rkm rdt]

There are 4 Translucents and 2 translucent lusters.

You're allowed to mix them if you want.

 

[martintay]

Try fireing a tab of TX to make sure you are fireing correctly- this should come out of the furnace looking pretty clear.On your build don`t be afraid to use more enamel and more luster.Noratake is probably not as translucent as some porcelains but as you have stated it has other advantages. All said you should still be able to get a nice result.I like the LTo for inceasing trans- without "greying"

 

[Edy]

There are 4 Translucents and 2 translucent lusters.

You're allowed to mix them if you want.

Rkm ty , what are those ? i know tx is clear , what are the 4 translucents and how i can use them ? and lusters ? how u mix ?

 

[Edy]

Try fireing a tab of TX to make sure you are fireing correctly- this should come out of the furnace looking pretty clear.On your build don`t be afraid to use more enamel and more luster.

will try that , i did it when i got inline , with noritake i didinot , i hope it will come out pretty clear because if not i will have to play again with temperatures ( which is not my best part , took me a while with inline to get close to clear tab )
And about the part of putting more enamel and lusters , i put once more lusters and it came out pretty grey crown and very ugly =/

 

[martintay]

I`ve edited the above Edy

 

[Edy]

i hope noritake resolves this issue and give it more translucency " if it can be done " , or maybe there is a method of build up which gives more trans and depth which we dont know it yet @_@

 

[rkm rdt]

You can mix your translucents with your enamels.

Experiment with tabs.

 

[martintay]

i hope noritake resolves this issue and give it more translucency " if it can be done " , or maybe there is a method of build up which gives more trans and depth which we dont know it yet @_@

The problem is too much trans leads to other problems ie masking metal and hitting the shade

 

[martintay]

You can mix your translucents with your enamels.

Experiment with tabs.

A friend of mine who has used EX3 for years is convinced its not as trans as it used to be ! He thinks the have moved production sites , don`t know if this is true ?

 

[Car 54]

I would consider what martintay suggested in firing up a tab of TX, and make sure it fires up pretty clear (even though the other porcelains seem to fire with translucency) A friend of mine who used EX3 and said the luster's can act to much like filters, and will filter out underlying effects. He used to cut his luster overlays with TX, or the next step less translucent of the standard translucency materials. This will help you get more depth, without filtering (blocking) what's underneath, and will also keep from lowering the value of the final shade to much. You would need to tweak as needed, i.e. maybe a 1/2 step brighter luster, with TX to help maintain proper value.

Also, you can try doing your glaze with full to 75% vacuum and see if that helps maintain the translucency.

 

[Edy]

rkm, i think i will finally buy a tab mold to experiment with tabs for a few days , and make some notes with what i build.

car 54 what you mean cut lusters with tx ? u mean his mixing 50/50 tx with Lt0 ? ,u know what i noticed ? when i put a thinner layer of luster i get a better depth , but i will try the tx mix.
and value i heared it so many times and still it didn't enter my brain well , i never understood what value means so anyway i would not know what to do with the tx to maintain it lol.

 

[rkm rdt]

You will learn everything with those shade tabs Edy. You can take shades on patients with them as well.

I used to make tabs and stick them on the bottles of porcelain for quick reference.

 

[Edy]

You will learn everything with those shade tabs Edy. You can take shades on patients with them as well.

I used to make tabs and stick them on the bottles of porcelain for quick reference.

i was looking now and i see in my books that only smileline has them , problem is a few months ago i asked for the price and it was damn high , what company are you using ??

 

[Javier Ricalde]

You can use syringe of 3 ml cut bottom pull plunger until the thickness that you want Tablet fill porcelain condense and push for sacred place on refractory cotton and burned 20 degrees c. more high release vacuum at normal temperature, or if you prefer form of tooth tooth with silicone printing and fill with ceramic so do them

 

[desertfox384]

I fought with Noritake for a few years.. Tried lots of different powders, layering techniques, temperatures etc... Had the same issues as described above.. It just looked kind of on the dead side. I decided to dust off my Inline sample kit - Inline looked so much more vibrant than Noritake - I even did 2 of the same posterior crown with Noritake and Inline and did a side by side comparison of both.. Inline matched the tab much better, and had a better overall look. The effect powders are really nice. I noticed big differences once I did a few anterior cases with Inline. I would spend so much time trying to make noritake "pretty", and with Inline it takes minimal effort. I also noticed you can get much closer to the opaque and not see the opaque like you can with Noritake.
What I do miss about Noritake is the handling....But handling alone can't sell it in my opinion.

 

[Edy]

I fought with Noritake for a few years.. Tried lots of different powders, layering techniques, temperatures etc... Had the same issues as described above.. It just looked kind of on the dead side. I decided to dust off my Inline sample kit - Inline looked so much more vibrant than Noritake - I even did 2 of the same posterior crown with Noritake and Inline and did a side by side comparison of both.. Inline matched the tab much better, and had a better overall look. The effect powders are really nice. I noticed big differences once I did a few anterior cases with Inline. I would spend so much time trying to make noritake "pretty", and with Inline it takes minimal effort. I also noticed you can get much closer to the opaque and not see the opaque like you can with Noritake.
What I do miss about Noritake is the handling....But handling alone can't sell it in my opinion.

i feel ya .. i got all inline powders too , they sit a side for 3 months now because i wanted to learn noritake .. on zirconia noritake czr is very pretty , on metal too only thing a bit of depth and trans lack , but like u say with inline u do dentin and enamel there u have the vita shade and pretty translucency and depth , i used both 3 months ago , now i am trying to learn noritake more and more , i think if you have the right build up you can achieve very nice results with noritake too , still waiting to hear how to improve the depth of a crown and the translucency .
Will be doing some tabs now like you said Javier , i got the silicone mold from smile line which i use for wax teeth , never thought to use them for porcelain tabs

 

[martintay]

Don`t waste your money Edy - you just want to get your furnace settings correct. I just take some porcelain out of the bottle with my wet brush and lay it on my spatular (in a taper -1.5mm to 0mm ) dry it and slide off onto soft-tray. After fireing if its good glue it to lid as rkm said for future reference > it only takes seconds and you can do various samples all in one fireing. The taper also lets you see how it looks at differing thicknesses.

 

[Edy]

ok .. i think i have a problem then , if my TX tab looks like this , then my lusters are more clowdy and less glassy , TX should look like glass right ???

 

[Tayebdental]

I have been using Noritake porcelain for 17 years I love it , as mention a bove you have to make shade tabs and tweek with the temperature, I stain and glaze darker shades at lower tempreture and lighter shade at slightly higher tempreture, another problem is their shade tap is more chromatic than the classic vita shade guide, I know Noritake has now the "N " porcelain, I tell my clients to mention if it is NP or Vita classic, you can also go to Noritake website for more instruction on layering. I agree the Noritakr Zr porcelain is nice. To make shde tabs use 2 pieces of 3mm thick plixey glass 25mmx60mm,cut a U shape on one end and attach the two pieces togother with a small bolt and locknut by drilling a small hole at the end of the pieces , you can shape the end of the upper piece by the model trimmer with water running to resemble the thin incisal ( gradually thinned). I hope I am clear.