Very difficult shade

[NicelyMKV]

They want this matched as close as possible? I already sent it back for prep reduction and just received it back. Emax. Any pointers??

 

[paulg100]

for starters, tell your doc to incorporate a try-in appointment into their costs

looks alot harder than it is i think.

base dentine. I enamel (not TI)
White motteling is IIW - probably with 5% essence white mixed it.

The brown neck stain i would stain on.

and thats it, only a few powders.

stipple the surface texture with a bur and underglaze.

then a try-in to dial things in or some luck to nail it first time out.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Thanks paulg100! I came up with a D3 gingival 3rd with D2 inc 2/3rds TI-3 with white mottling along the incisal 1/8th. Looked like mahogany and orange individually and kind of blended staining at gingival. I have not worked with the I incisals. Are they just more opacious? I will definitely check that out Monday. I keep seeing some kind of vertical striping but just can't put my finger on what to use. No experience with the effect powders either. I need to find a really good course for that. Honestly, due to this forum and everyone on it, I have really started trying a lot harder to get more accurate. I was originally given a D2 with chalky white incisal? That prompted me to set up an appointment with the patient. As you can see ,very different. But normally they would have been happy. I just don't want to do that kind of stuff anymore and want to again, thank all of you for the push to improve. I think now it is just going to be a matter of trying to vastly improve my skills.

 

[doug]

Maybe the dentist could send the patient through the hygiene department to clean all of the crap off of those teeth.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Haaaaaa! Doug! My first thoughts exactly. I was kind of like... Seriously?!

 

[paulg100]

the verticle stripping is IIW. i would probably fire then cut these in with a bur then fill with IIW. or you can just build your skin layer and wipe a thin brush across then fill in with IIW, you just have less controll that way.

If you use something like OE4 i think you will find they come out to faint unlless you have lots of space and can make the embrasures to fill with white very deep, and you will have to bump them up with white stain at the end, which is not a major problem.

Yes the I enamels are less translucent. It depends on how you build up, i do one build of dentines and a base incisal in I then fire. Then use TI or I as a skin layer.

if you use the TI's right through then you will probably find there normally to translucent and grey to much or you have to much of a demarcation where the dentine ends and the enamel starts.

Alternativly you can just chuck 5%-10% dentine into the TI enamel.

Dont frighten your self by looking at the shade tabs for IIW and thinking wow that is gonna come out way to white. Remember the Tabs are like 1mm thick, even at their thinesst part. The space we have when working with the enamel layer on a build is way less than that so if you image that colour at maybe .2 then that is how intense it will be.

To get white motteling like the image there, you need to start using the essence powders to boost the colours, or use stains to boost em.

as always better to slightly under do than over. You can always bolster with external stains at the end. Once the underlying colour is there, it only takes a small amount of stain to bring the colour out.

After rubber wheeling smooth then stippling with a bur, use a thin wash of glaze and fire at 70 climb at 730 with 0 hold. That should get you close to that luster i reckon (providing your furnace is accurate). If you over glaze out the furnace its gonna be hard to bring back down without screwing your surface texture, so under glaze and buff up with diamond paste is the way to go.

oh and the essence powders are VERY intense. So if you get into using them normally a very small amount, say 5% is plenty in the mix.

Phew! My 2 cents

See if Al or someone has anything to add, or maybe they will think different.

"No experience with the effect powders either. I need to find a really good course for that."

Check when IDEA has Oliver Brix out there again next, and learn from THE MAN

 

[NicelyMKV]

Thanks paul! After seeing your work I especially appreciate your input. I have Oliver Brix book, principles of esthetics. He really goes into detail. I need to study up on it quite a bit more.

 

[Al.]

Hi Jason, I agree with what Paul said. Also like he said, I dont think this is a difficult shade.

One thing you said the base shade was in the D2/D3 range.
I wouldnt press with a D2 or 3 ingot. There is a good chance it will come out like the temps, with that dead grey look. I had that happen a couple times with D2 or 3 ingots for anteriors.

I would press it in B2 Lt.

Im seeing the higher value B2 ish rectangle in #9 framed with trans on the entire M and D.

I would make my wax up match that rectangle but try to thin it enough on the facial to layer a bit of dentin over it and fill the M and D with i1.

Then I would stain. Probably use a combo of vanilla and white for the incisal band. White is pretty intense so I may cut it with the vanilla.
Then stain the cervical. That looks like some red brown, orange brown or just orange and some white?
As much as that is, I would not try to stain it all in one shot or the colors may blend together or look blochy.
Id probably stain the cervical with loops or you will take a pic of it later and it will look like crap but if it looks good with loops it will probably look good mag in a pic.

Fire the stains a bit lower in temp so you dont disturb or glass your porc.

Then like Paul said layer a skin over the whole facial.

Just make sure before you stain that you have the entire facial cut back enough or you will get into all your stain or not have enough room to layer over it all to put it deep enough to make it look real. Been there done that a few times.

Like Paul said err light on the stains. You can always go back and add some more later if you need to.
Stain is really reflective esp the white and when you see it lit up with bright lights or with the flash from your cam it can really stand out sometimes too much.

Looks like your going to have to make 7 more chromatic esp on the distal to blend in with 6 and 10 better. More like a straight D2/3 with some OE3 or 4 incisal on the surface of the incisal 1/4?

Take note of how sharp the distal incisal edges are on 9 and 10.
Not rounded like the temps are. Try to match that sharp wear pattern.

 

[Al.]

Jason when I take pics I have the patient fully sit up in the chair.

I sit next to them in the Drs or assistants chair.
I sit just a bit higher then them mabey 1 or 2 inches so my camera angle is very slightly at a downward angle. This puts the fllash more towards the gums and the gin 1/3.

I have them turn their head towards me.

Your pics are below the teeth looking upwards.
Thats a difficult angle.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Thank you so much for the advice Al! I was really frustrated with my pictures. Kept getting flash reflection etc. I will do that next time.

I think I have been going about value all wrong for quite some time. I will post my builds as I go and see what you guys think. So would you guys use TI-3 as the skin layer? I have a pic with the D3 tab off the Emax shade guide but once again the flash reflection pretty much ruined it.

 

[paulg100]

its hard to say which TI to use for the skin layer without tabs in the images but maybe TI3. Just remember to try and keep the skin layer maybe .2-.3 thick.

Go thicker with TI3 and you will start to grey out/loose value, which you dont want espcially in the middle third where you have the extra value there.

maybe use TI2 in the middle to be on the safe side.

Re the reflection/specular highlights your getting, let me guess you are using a ring flash??

 

[rkm rdt]

Does Emax make a plaque shade?

 

[TheLabGuy]

Does Emax make a plaque shade?

Yeah, it was distributed only in Canada though popcorn

 

[rkm rdt]

...that's definitely calculus!

...too hard for an American Hygenist.

 

[NicelyMKV]

 

[NicelyMKV]

 

[NicelyMKV]

Well it was a failure They loved it and seated it and all that but I missed it bad. I need OE-3 on the facial of 8, less trans on incisal edge, more white mottling on facial incisal 1/4, more trans on distal edge and on and on..... They had to reduce the preps before the seat and it looks like 7 is angled out facially. I really missed the contour of 7. The distal really need to flatten out and go straight into the tissue. The mescal contact area of 8 is off. The line angle should have been rolled in more. The distal gingival area of 8 is off. The value of 8 in general is too low. #5 looks decent waaaaaay back thereOh well........ fire away

 

[NicelyMKV]

I also needed OE4 on the incisal 3rd of 7. I only had OE3 hence the crappy white stain job..

I also missed it due to poor camera skills. If you like at the 1st photos in the thread you will see a total loss of color visibility. Especially in the incisal area of 8. Luckily Al gave me some pomiters on the correct angle to photograph from etc and I think next time I will be able to do better. Thanks Al and Paul and everybody else who gave me advice.

Jason

 

[Al.]

Hey that's pretty darn close for the first try in. If they didn't accept it, it would be an easy fix To make them disappear. Nice job.

For lab pics of uppers, take them like you did, up side down so they don't fall off the model, but then flip them right side up on your computer.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Thanks Al! I used your recipe. B2 LT layered with D3 gin 3rd and D2 inc2/3rds. I only had I 2 so I used that on M and D. OE3 across incisal 1/4 with gin staining done separately. Skin layer TI3 with white stain across white band again. Lateral was just B2 LT with straight D3 and OE3 incisal with D stain and White stain. I used a cloudy white wash right along gingival to try and replicate that cure for cancer growing there. you guys are really inspiring me to attempt more difficult cases. Thanks again and Al thanks for taking time to help mere mortals such as myself