This may be my last thread.

sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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I dont care how its made, I just care if its accurate. Dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining.. a printed model, is not as accurate or detailed as a stone model with pvs. That doesnt mean its not usable, its certainly detailed enough to work on, but if youre designing from a scan anyway, I dont see the point.. check your contacts and occlusion on a printed model? Why? Because the scan isnt accurate enough? Ive looked at enough dies under the scope to know that youre not going to get that detail in a printed model.. So whats new? Everyone has their shortcuts, doesnt make it better.
even scanning a model and milling a crown, i make adjustments to contacts on the model. printing a model to verify contacts seems reasonable, no?
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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you know what would be cool?

imagine instead of pouring impressions or filling impressions with plaster/stone/resin/polydie you spraycoat the impression like a truck bed liner.

you'd get a skin instead of a solid. might be nifty.

to acheive this maybe fill a spray gun with resin and ash/fiber filler. spray on, let dry, pop out.
thats cool, until the standard pvs market dried up due to i/o cams
 
Affinity

Affinity

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Very reasonable, I kinda wanted someone else to admit that going model-less doesnt seem like a good idea... You cant judge path of insertion, or the software cant usually, in CAD..
 
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sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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Very reasonable, I kinda wanted someone else to admit that going model-less doesnt seem like a good idea... You cant judge path of insertion, or the software cant usually, in CAD..
then how are people doing it effectively?
actual question, not just trying to be an ass...there are labs doing it. and labs here on DLN. successfully.
 
Affinity

Affinity

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Im not saying its impossible. Cerec Drs do it everyday apparently. One mans success is another mans remake. Thank God we dont all use the same definitions.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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Im not saying its impossible. Cerec Drs do it everyday apparently. One mans success is another mans remake. Thank God we dont all use the same definitions.
i wouldnt hold cerec to commercial lab standards in any way shape or form. lets ignore their crap. there are still labs doing it. and being profitable is the goal. thats why we are in business. making teeth is secondary.
 
Affinity

Affinity

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I just meant that IOS docs arent using a model, regardless of the system.. they have the actual 'master model' in the chair.

I personally, have no piece of mind in sending out a crown floating in space, call me old school. I hear a lot of about 'success' .. like how can you be successful at closing margins with microscopic integrity, when you dont have the ability to do that without a model? By lowering your standard of 'successful'.. Different ideas about success.. some people think success is the crown seated and the check clearing.. no matter the 'grade' of the crown. I hate to beat the dead horse by again saying that just because technology makes it easier and faster, doesnt make it better or even necessary.

I say this not as a profit chaser but seeking perfection.
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

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how can you be successful at closing margins with microscopic integrity, when you dont have the ability to do that without a model? .
by becoming tuned and professional at working your printer/mill.

dental mills are by and large sold as turn-key, to people who don't have time or knowledge how to tune the machine for objects to your specifications.

mill vendors are counting on showing you workflows instead of educating you on calculation. those who know how to adjust material removal will be able to properly create items out of their CNC's that are to spec.

imagine if you will, how do you think iTero is able to guarantee their models are accurate to their scan data? how do you think imilling can guarantee milled full gold is sold profitably? how can Panthera make such intricate bars?

fine knowledge of CNC equipment got these player to the top of the game. thats the level you can be at with a bit of work. thats the level you'll need to be at to make model-free work.
 
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S

Scott Bradley

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then how are people doing it effectively?
actual question, not just trying to be an ass...there are labs doing it. and labs here on DLN. successfully.
Building a digital lab is a totally different beast than an analog lab. The problem with most dental labs trying to get into digital dentistry is that they think they can pull someone off the street and teach them how to design a crown in a couple of hours and then they are shocked when things start to go south on them. Also they have a porcelain tech grind, stain and glaze the crowns, thus negating the benefit of going digital. A weekend warrior tech is the Achilles heal of digital dentistry. Yeah they can design crowns, but you are going to be doing a LOT of finish work. I have worked in several places and trained under some very good technicians (both digital and analog) and have just celebrated the first anniversary of my own dental lab.
I work solo and so I don't have the time for failures. I am able to easily scan, design, finish and glaze 10-12 crowns a day. The trick is that you have to print models and mill your own crowns. Also I use Katana Zirconia so for 95% of cases I don't have to worry about staining them. The only problem with that is that you need a large stock of zirconia on hand. I get on average 23 units per disc. I have doctors comment on how they look better than the emax crowns they used to get from their other labs. Waxing and pressing Emax used to be my forte. No more!
I buy Sierra Tools for my mill and only buy diamond. The burrs are $145 each but the last time I switched them out I had done over 900 crowns on the set, making the cost per unit on burrs to be around 35 cents. Printing models to check the contacts is also something I do and I have gotten the resin cost per model down to $.50. I do about 95% of my finish work while the zirconia is it's green state using Matrix Shapers I get from Henry Schein. Those are AWESOME, I trim sprues and thin margins. Just don't buy the green and white ones. They are green and I think a medium grit. The green and white ones include a fine white tip to them and they each cost as much as 5 of the green burs (around $35) and I have not found any benefit in using the fine tool on my crowns.
I am fully digital and lower my cost to dentists while still maintaining a good profit margin. I did a full lab costing for my business and have added the price of everything into my crowns down to the garbage bag that I replace every other week. I am able to have a significantly lower price than other labs in the area and still maintain a good profit. I also have a 3 day turnaround on my crowns which is very attractive to dentists. I could easily triple my output if I could find another tech who is trained well in digital design.
 
Affinity

Affinity

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CHL, I totally agree, but the majority arent working with what itero and panthera use. Even the most seasoned machinists use a micrometer after the mill is finished as far as I know..
 
Affinity

Affinity

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It sounds like you might be a little fearful of technology and what it can do.
If youre not fearful of technology and what it can do, you arent paying attention. Answer this: if technology eliminates your career, is it beneficial to you?
 
rkm rdt

rkm rdt

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I'm so tired of hearing about the xyz axis. Boring in grade 10 and still boring!
Makes me want to go smoke a spliff behind the portables and then hit on the cute chick in the cafeteria.
 
user name

user name

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I use Katana Zirconia so for 95% of cases I don't have to worry about staining them. The only problem with that is that you need a large stock of zirconia on hand.
No offense, but get your eyes checked or raise your standards. I too do 95% of my work with Katana, but every one needs some tweeking with stain. Biggest problem is, two crowns from the same puck can have different color/value. Theyre good, but there not perfect.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Building a digital lab is a totally different beast than an analog lab. The problem with most dental labs trying to get into digital dentistry is that they think they can pull someone off the street and teach them how to design a crown in a couple of hours and then they are shocked when things start to go south on them. Also they have a porcelain tech grind, stain and glaze the crowns, thus negating the benefit of going digital. A weekend warrior tech is the Achilles heal of digital dentistry. Yeah they can design crowns, but you are going to be doing a LOT of finish work. I have worked in several places and trained under some very good technicians (both digital and analog) and have just celebrated the first anniversary of my own dental lab.
I work solo and so I don't have the time for failures. I am able to easily scan, design, finish and glaze 10-12 crowns a day. The trick is that you have to print models and mill your own crowns. Also I use Katana Zirconia so for 95% of cases I don't have to worry about staining them. The only problem with that is that you need a large stock of zirconia on hand. I get on average 23 units per disc. I have doctors comment on how they look better than the emax crowns they used to get from their other labs. Waxing and pressing Emax used to be my forte. No more!
I buy Sierra Tools for my mill and only buy diamond. The burrs are $145 each but the last time I switched them out I had done over 900 crowns on the set, making the cost per unit on burrs to be around 35 cents. Printing models to check the contacts is also something I do and I have gotten the resin cost per model down to $.50. I do about 95% of my finish work while the zirconia is it's green state using Matrix Shapers I get from Henry Schein. Those are AWESOME, I trim sprues and thin margins. Just don't buy the green and white ones. They are green and I think a medium grit. The green and white ones include a fine white tip to them and they each cost as much as 5 of the green burs (around $35) and I have not found any benefit in using the fine tool on my crowns.
I am fully digital and lower my cost to dentists while still maintaining a good profit margin. I did a full lab costing for my business and have added the price of everything into my crowns down to the garbage bag that I replace every other week. I am able to have a significantly lower price than other labs in the area and still maintain a good profit. I also have a 3 day turnaround on my crowns which is very attractive to dentists. I could easily triple my output if I could find another tech who is trained well in digital design.
this kind of info is the stuff i need. theres no way im trying to pull a noob off the street and teach them how to churn out crappy crowns. i have little to no adjustments on my milled crowns (single to 3unit bridges). green state or post-sinter. there shouldnt be much if any adjustment needed. so that said, i dont buy all those green state tools you do. i use TD tools for milling and get significantly more units per tool for a fraction of the cost. thats not to say sierra tools are bad, they are not. TD tools are just as good if not better and are $100 less expensive lol. thats a no brainer. havent gotten to printing a model yet, but i am right on the cusp of pulling the trigger on some sort of system. the labor and time involved with creating an analog model, sectioning, and ditching, is just far too much. may start moving toward scanning impressions in the mean time and only pouring check models for contacts.
the biggest hurdle is time, and quality help. im already beyond capacity for work load, and theres few options for hiring. nervous about pulling the trigger on digital, but know its where things are going. with or without me. id rather be along for the ride and hopefully free up some spare time for living a life outside of teeth.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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Full Member
No offense, but get your eyes checked or raise your standards. I too do 95% of my work with Katana, but every one needs some tweeking with stain. Biggest problem is, two crowns from the same puck can have different color/value. Theyre good, but there not perfect.
perfect doesnt exist in what we do. and while you, and me, and @Affinity strive for it in our work....its unreasonable and unobtainable. perfection is imperfect in what we do. want proof, go grab a "rule" book of tooth morphology and start looking at teeth in nature. perfection is imperfect. i started getting far better results when i accepted that fact.
 
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