This may be my last thread.

Affinity

Affinity

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The best printed model I saw in Chicago last year was a sample I still have, produced on 3dsystems flagship dental printer, and the quality was great, really great, but not anywhere near the detail of of PVS and stone, or even epoxy. Maybe the extra detail or contrast isnt needed, but its what Im used to and it works, even if its 1:1 as accurate. Some techs use a plastic micrometer, some use a digital steel one in a wooden case, I like nice tools.

The working time of making a stone model vs scanning and designing a model and then printing it, washing it etc. is negligible Im willing to bet.. anyone wanna race?
 
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sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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The best printed model I saw in Chicago last year was a sample I still have, produced on 3dsystems flagship dental printer, and the quality was great, really great, but not anywhere near the detail of of PVS and stone, or even epoxy. Maybe the extra detail or contrast isnt needed, but its what Im used to and it works, even if its 1:1 as accurate. Some techs use a plastic micrometer, some use a digital steel one in a wooden case, I like nice tools.

The working time of making a stone model vs scanning and designing a model and then printing it, washing it etc. is negligible Im willing to bet.. anyone wanna race?
the difference in working time is not how long it takes to make one model. its how much labor is involved. i can go design or glaze crowns while models are printing. even if you can hand make analog models faster, your taking labor hours that could be used elsewhere. (this is my bigest sticking point and advantage i see to going to printed models)
as far as the quality goes, theres a large range of results. i agree quality is super important. but whats important to me and whats important to clients are two diff things at a certain point. thats why i use 1-20x magnification and they use 2.5-3.5x magnification.
 
Affinity

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I see where youre coming from, I could actually scan impressions and print my models, in house, but I just dont see the advantage yet.. I have someone pouring up the models so the cost and time is minimal, to me.. Im not even sure I could convince the Drs that it would be better to print the model, or if they would even care.. But what it comes down to, is that most impressions arent great, and most margins certainly arent visible without some degree of soft tissue removal or help. Ive tried marking margins on solid model scans in CAD and I just dont think its AS accurate IMO. So now, my die I would trim under a scope, is clicked, buried in CAD tissue, and my only way to check that, is the printed model, I made from clicking on a CAD image. Its subjective to how well you found the margin from your scan, same as trimming a stone die. Ive trimmed enough thousands of dies to know its like archaeology most of the time.. Its just a different way to get to the same place, Im just not convinced its better. Maybe its faster? But Im not turning around dozens of crowns in 3 days either.. so maybe its like apples and oranges.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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I see where youre coming from, I could actually scan impressions and print my models, in house, but I just dont see the advantage yet.. I have someone pouring up the models so the cost and time is minimal, to me.. Im not even sure I could convince the Drs that it would be better to print the model, or if they would even care.. But what it comes down to, is that most impressions arent great, and most margins certainly arent visible without some degree of soft tissue removal or help. Ive tried marking margins on solid model scans in CAD and I just dont think its AS accurate IMO. So now, my die I would trim under a scope, is clicked, buried in CAD tissue, and my only way to check that, is the printed model, I made from clicking on a CAD image. Its subjective to how well you found the margin from your scan, same as trimming a stone die. Ive trimmed enough thousands of dies to know its like archaeology most of the time.. Its just a different way to get to the same place, Im just not convinced its better. Maybe its faster? But Im not turning around dozens of crowns in 3 days either.. so maybe its like apples and oranges.
all valid points, and i cant disagree with any of it....maybe with the exception of most imps not being great. def varies from client to client but most of mine are legible enough that i can see them on the screen or in stone just as easily. obviously anything that isnt legible shouldnt be manufactured without at least a phone call. which is where i am now anyway. so whats the difference?
i too have someone making models....but she can scan impressions just as easily, then go do other stuff. just as its faster to scan/design/mill and go do other stuff instead of waxing for pressing. i keep trying to talk myself out of a printer for all the same reasons you bring up. not just trying to argue with you here, i actually really like this dialogue and feel its needed no matter what we choose to do
 
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I like this thread after all, and no one has skewered me.

So...3500 dollar printer or 10k?
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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I like this thread after all, and no one has skewered me.

So...3500 dollar printer or 10k?
wish i had an answer...
best i can say is ive not seen a vastly different result from the $4000 printer or the $10k printer. im not talking materials per say, but actual print results for models/dentures/stents/etc. which forces me to lean toward....why spend an extra $6k?
 
rkm rdt

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How much you paying that tech to do models? Payroll taxes all in.
My Monthly Argen bill is far cheaper than hiring. I can do crowns in 3 days too.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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How much you paying that tech to do models? Payroll taxes all in.
My Monthly Argen bill is far cheaper than hiring. I can do crowns in 3 days too.
good point, except the model tech does much more than just models. things argen cant do.
not to mention, the results i got from argen when using them were spotty at best. terribly unreliable and not worth a consideration for me.
ultimately, scanning an imp could be taken over by the model tech (if we choose that route). simple enough that even a noob hire can take it over in a few days of training.
 
Affinity

Affinity

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Call me a control freak, but I want to keep as much of the production in house as I can. Ive seen things from other labs that make me realize how little people can give a hoot.
 
rkm rdt

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I'll equate passing the 40 year milestone with providing consistent quality.
 
CoolHandLuke

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wish i had an answer...
best i can say is ive not seen a vastly different result from the $4000 printer or the $10k printer. im not talking materials per say, but actual print results for models/dentures/stents/etc. which forces me to lean toward....why spend an extra $6k?
its called build quality.

why buy a cheap truck when you can buy a dependable truck?
 
TheLabGuy

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I just meant that IOS docs arent using a model, regardless of the system.. they have the actual 'master model' in the chair.

I personally, have no piece of mind in sending out a crown floating in space, call me old school. I hear a lot of about 'success' .. like how can you be successful at closing margins with microscopic integrity, when you dont have the ability to do that without a model? By lowering your standard of 'successful'.. Different ideas about success.. some people think success is the crown seated and the check clearing.. no matter the 'grade' of the crown. I hate to beat the dead horse by again saying that just because technology makes it easier and faster, doesnt make it better or even necessary.

I say this not as a profit chaser but seeking perfection.
Even if we could cure that resin in the impression it would be a solid model. Resin is too expensive to do solid models. I am able to create hollow models where I am just getting half of each adjacent tooth to check the contact after glazing. I never have to add contacts and the occlusion is spot on. It takes me 2 min to design a model and then I batch print and walk away. When they are done printing 2-4 hours later I put the units in a wash and when the cycle is done I put them in the cure unit. All in all there is practically zero labor on my part and the models are extremely accurate. I have it down to about 3ml of liquid resin per model. At $150 per liter I am paying about $.50 per model.
Add to that the formlab printers I have cost around $3400 and the wash and cure systems together are around $1000 I find it SO much cheaper and accurate to scan the impressions (which take a couple of minutes longer than a model but you have to consider that I am going to scan the model anyways) and design a model than to pour up, cut, trim, prepare, break, re-pour, curse.... The investment in the software and printers seems huge at first but the return is massive!
Also, formlabs just came out with a denture resin where you can print the base and the teeth at a fraction of the cost and time compared to the traditional methods.
There is almost zero waste in printing models.
What scanner you using for impressions?
 
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sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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its called build quality.

why buy a cheap truck when you can buy a dependable truck?
so the build quality of the nextdent is the best out there? i mean, why buy the cheap $10k build quality when you can buy a dependable $40k one?
 
CoolHandLuke

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i didn't say that. printer rep is coming in tomorrow actually so i'll give you a rundown later.

i've been first hand witness to just how bad 3dsystems 3000/4100 series printers were despite their high pricetag or build quality.

but everyone who has had a formlabs complains how it starts falling apart after its first year. i'm only pointing out the reason you would want to spend the money on an alternative printer is longevity; expensive but bad printers abound all over the place. in order to be the bestseller printer however, it needs to satisfy not only the Cheap requirement, but also the Dependable requirement.
 
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LarryRDC

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Had my printer for 3 months now. It's working for me :) One man lab and I'm happy with my new "employee" Besides not having pour most of my models there are other things you can print as well...
photo.jpegphoto (1).jpegphoto (2).jpegphoto (3).jpeg
 
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LarryRDC

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Oops, sorry!.... NextDent 5100. Yes there is a learning curve, but I didn't find it too bad..
The hardware and software is pretty user freindly. The model materials are ok...... but sure they will only get better with time
 
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CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

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I have a d710, but Ive never really used it to scan impressions.
ugh, don't. theres a way to scan impressions intelligently, but it involves none of the current hardware. i would avoid this still.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

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ugh, don't. theres a way to scan impressions intelligently, but it involves none of the current hardware. i would avoid this still.
ive had good results scanning impressions thus far. no scan spray either. verified on analog models that would have otherwise been scanned.
 
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