Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K Help

[NDA]

View attachment 42985
Nice articulator attachment. Which is it?
I've an 8k that I haven't tuned in yet so I'm watching this thread!

It is for iTero articulator as someone already mentioned. I'm using CAP's version of it. I do have iTero's articulator in my library, but I can't seem to use it because of an error. This version is fine, so I'm not really looking into that error. I'm using iTero articulator just because I have their articulator and I have models from them as a comparison to the models I print.

 

[NDA]

If I can remember, I'll screenshot my resin settings tomorrow. If your models are still feeling tacky its cause they aren't fully cured. What curing unit are you using and for how long? What percentage isopropyl are you using?

I'm using Phrozen's Wash & Cure kit. I'm not sure, it does a good job of curing the model. I normally cure it for 30 minutes. I've done a few hours of curing before to test but had no difference. But then that was before I realized I have to thoroughly clean the model to rid of resin first, so I might try increasing the cure time again. I also use 95% isopropyl alcohol, the one you can find in Walmart.

 

[NDA]

i think thread is the reason i buy asiga printers ,plug them in calibrate and away i go.

I just wanted to say the same, if you are not tech savvy or don't have time to play with settings, then you should keep away from cheap tech with really no support. The printers itself are very good however.

Yeah, I'm thinking Asiga will be the next printer I'll buy. I just don't get enough digital cases at this point and I thought this printer could be a great learning step. There's really huge price gap between Asiga and this printer haha.

 

[Gru]

It's for the iTero articulator.

I knew it was, but WHO's and how to get it? Does someone have the attachment file, or does cap own the rights?

 

[NDA]

I knew it was, but WHO's and how to get it? Does someone have the attachment file, or does cap own the rights?

I've gotten the library because they were the ones who installed 3shape programs for me. You should ask cap if they could install the library for you.

 

[Car 54]

I knew it was, but WHO's and how to get it? Does someone have the attachment file, or does cap own the rights?

Good, I'm glad I was able to help you clarify what you were looking for...it's a service I provide. lol

I got my iTero articulator .dme from Argen.

 

[mightymouse]

Yeah, I'm thinking Asiga will be the next printer I'll buy. I just don't get enough digital cases at this point and I thought this printer could be a great learning step. There's really huge price gap between Asiga and this printer haha.

As mentioned before Phrozen makes sense for that sweet spot of moderate tech savvy-ness, low up front cost, and validated resin applications. For me models, custom trays and nightguards have made Phrozen a great choice. Nightguards being the money maker. You also can’t beat their model resin at $35-50 a bottle. Don’t bother with the dental Phrozen resin the Aqua 4K does a great job. Make your money off the SM4K gain experience and then upgrade when your budget allows and digital workload gets higher. That’s what I’m doing. Hope it works out for you.

 

[Jack_the_dentureman]

View attachment 42985
Nice articulator attachment. Which is it?
I've an 8k that I haven't tuned in yet so I'm watching this thread!

this fluff effect on the side is called blooming.
you can avoid this by making hollow models and making holes so that there is no suction of the model.

a full model usually has such a surface or an hollowed model but without holes for suction reduction.

you will get rid of this problem effectively.

 

[tuyere]

I'm using Phrozen's Wash & Cure kit. I'm not sure, it does a good job of curing the model. I normally cure it for 30 minutes. I've done a few hours of curing before to test but had no difference. But then that was before I realized I have to thoroughly clean the model to rid of resin first, so I might try increasing the cure time again. I also use 95% isopropyl alcohol, the one you can find in Walmart.

What's your post-processing workflow? In case you're not already doing this, use two wash steps, a dirty and a clean- this is basically non-negotiable for getting fully-cleaned models that aren't tacky, imo. Get another wash tub and move the parts through two baths in sequence, ideally flipping or turning the parts in between to guarantee proper solvent through-flow all across the model; at the end of the day / after every few days, empty out the first 'dirty' wash and turn the 'clean' wash into your 'dirty', filling the other tub up with fresh IPA.

Also- many resins cure more effectively if shielded from the atmosphere, because oxygen from the air reacts with the photoinitiators in the resin when it's in its very reactive UV-excited state. This depletes the photoinitiators (which are supposed to react with the monomers and polymers in the resin, to help cross-link them into a solid mass) and leaves the part in a permanently 'half-cured' state that you can't fix. Nitrogen or a low vacuum are preferred where possible, but if you're on a budget, I found immersing parts in a transparent tub of water and curing that can get much better results than just curing in open air.

Also- 30 minutes sounds very long for a cure cycle for this kind of generic modelling resin, but I'm not sure what Phrozen recommends. Most of the hobbuy- resins I've worked with recommend a cure of less than 10 minutes, you don't get much benefit beyond that and it can increase embrittlement and warping. For example, Siraya Tech's Navy Grey Fast is their most popular product, and they recommend a post-processing cure time of 2 minutes: https://siraya.tech/pages/fast Curing under water requires longer cure times, but not significantly more. IIRC my curing cycle for Siraya Tech Sculpt Ultra was 7 minutes on the curing turntable, flip the part in the water to better expose the underside, and run it for another 7. Without the water I believe my sweet spot was 6-8 minutes total.

 

[NDA]

As mentioned before Phrozen makes sense for that sweet spot of moderate tech savvy-ness, low up front cost, and validated resin applications. For me models, custom trays and nightguards have made Phrozen a great choice. Nightguards being the money maker. You also can’t beat their model resin at $35-50 a bottle. Don’t bother with the dental Phrozen resin the Aqua 4K does a great job. Make your money off the SM4K gain experience and then upgrade when your budget allows and digital workload gets higher. That’s what I’m doing. Hope it works out for you.

Yep, that's what I'm planning to do. Thanks, I hope it works out too.

 

[NDA]

this fluff effect on the side is called blooming.
you can avoid this by making hollow models and making holes so that there is no suction of the model.

a full model usually has such a surface or an hollowed model but without holes for suction reduction.

you will get rid of this problem effectively.

I'll try that when the printer starts working again. I did try printing one hollow model. Not sure why I stopped. But it did have the same issue of crowns not fitting well onto the model. Maybe I'm designing the model wrong. I lack skills in designing models using digital impression too since it's my first time doing so.

 

[NDA]

What's your post-processing workflow? In case you're not already doing this, use two wash steps, a dirty and a clean- this is basically non-negotiable for getting fully-cleaned models that aren't tacky, imo. Get another wash tub and move the parts through two baths in sequence, ideally flipping or turning the parts in between to guarantee proper solvent through-flow all across the model; at the end of the day / after every few days, empty out the first 'dirty' wash and turn the 'clean' wash into your 'dirty', filling the other tub up with fresh IPA.

Also- many resins cure more effectively if shielded from the atmosphere, because oxygen from the air reacts with the photoinitiators in the resin when it's in its very reactive UV-excited state. This depletes the photoinitiators (which are supposed to react with the monomers and polymers in the resin, to help cross-link them into a solid mass) and leaves the part in a permanently 'half-cured' state that you can't fix. Nitrogen or a low vacuum are preferred where possible, but if you're on a budget, I found immersing parts in a transparent tub of water and curing that can get much better results than just curing in open air.

Also- 30 minutes sounds very long for a cure cycle for this kind of generic modelling resin, but I'm not sure what Phrozen recommends. Most of the hobbuy- resins I've worked with recommend a cure of less than 10 minutes, you don't get much benefit beyond that and it can increase embrittlement and warping. For example, Siraya Tech's Navy Grey Fast is their most popular product, and they recommend a post-processing cure time of 2 minutes: https://siraya.tech/pages/fast Curing under water requires longer cure times, but not significantly more. IIRC my curing cycle for Siraya Tech Sculpt Ultra was 7 minutes on the curing turntable, flip the part in the water to better expose the underside, and run it for another 7. Without the water I believe my sweet spot was 6-8 minutes total.

My post-processing workflow is similar. I have dirty alcohol, which I use to wash the printed and brush the model with the soft toothbrush. Then, I put the model in the washing station that came with the washer and cure kit. Then I lightly rinse in another cup of alcohol. Do you really have to replace alcohol that often? My current setup required more than 1.5 gallons of alcohol because that washing station is huge.

I'm not sure how effective my curing station is in shielding from the atmosphere. It has a cover on it, but that's it. Is there equipment you would recommend? And when you mean immersing parts in a transparent tub of water and curing, do you mean putting the model in a transparent cup of water and putting that cup in the curing unit?

I was doing a 30-minute cure cycle because the curing unit I received had it defaulted at 30 minutes. I'll set it up so that it only cures for 10 minutes or less. It will be more beneficial for me.

 

[NDA]

Update:
Phrozen reached out and gave me new files for the firmware update. Apparently, newest sm4k has new version of touch screen, which requires different firmware update files than what they have on their website. I used that and it's no longer white screen. But different error popped up when updating, so I'm back to reaching out to Phrozen again.

 

[tuyere]

My post-processing workflow is similar. I have dirty alcohol, which I use to wash the printed and brush the model with the soft toothbrush. Then, I put the model in the washing station that came with the washer and cure kit. Then I lightly rinse in another cup of alcohol. Do you really have to replace alcohol that often? My current setup required more than 1.5 gallons of alcohol because that washing station is huge.

I'm not sure how effective my curing station is in shielding from the atmosphere. It has a cover on it, but that's it. Is there equipment you would recommend? And when you mean immersing parts in a transparent tub of water and curing, do you mean putting the model in a transparent cup of water and putting that cup in the curing unit?

I was doing a 30-minute cure cycle because the curing unit I received had it defaulted at 30 minutes. I'll set it up so that it only cures for 10 minutes or less. It will be more beneficial for me.

You definitely don't have to replace it that often, I'm used to a very high-output lab that washes hundreds of models a day, and where we recycle our own alcohol with a solvent distiller to save money. You'll notice that the dirty wash will gradually become less effective at cleaning, and that's a good point at which to turn the clean wash into the dirty wash. And I do recommend getting two separate wash tubs with two full baths, the second clean wash is worth giving parts a few minutes of active circulation vs. a quick dip, it'll make for cleaner parts.
FWIW I don't bother brushing parts clean unless it's an extremely viscous or persistent resin, an effective wash cycle should make it unnecessary most of the time. I recommend getting a lab wash bottle or a big ~100ml syringe and using it to flush alcohol through hollow models, implant components with through-holes, etc, those areas are hard to clean out any other way.

Yeah, I just put a clear plastic tub filled with water onto the turntable and run the curing cycle. Not all resins benefit from it and long immersion in water is never a good idea for any resin, but it can get better results if you don't have a proper nitrogen-shielding system, which you don't get until you're buying a real lab-tier curing unit like an Otoflash that'll run you at least a couple thousand USD. As a rule, always follow the specific post-processing recommendations for the resin you're using, and if you can't find good ones for the resin you're using, try a product with better support.

RE: cure times, yeah, also follow manufacturer recommendations here. Every product is different and default settings probably won't do a stellar job.

 

[Affinity]

I hear of asiga users scraping contacts on every model because cases are open in the mouth, I couldnt spend $10k knowing that, so a $400 phrozen helps me sleep at night, and the prints come out better than outsourced models I get from nexdent printers. Ive already got an expensive refrigerator sized SLA mistake taking up space.

 

[Car 54]

I'm looking at buying a Sonic Mini 8K S. I need to start getting familiar with 3D printing and curing. https://phrozen3d.com/products/phrozen-sonic-mini-8k-s-resin-3d-printer
I'm also thinking of getting their Wash and Cure kit. Is there something else anyone would suggest that may be better, or is that one a good starter one?

Wash & Cure Kit

Phrozen Wash & Cure Station Kit will supercharge your resin cleaning and curing process. Check it out to make your workflow faster and easier.

phrozen3d.com

What slicer software are you all using to import and work with .STL files?

 

[JKraver]

I hear of asiga users scraping contacts on every model because cases are open in the mouth, I couldnt spend $10k knowing that, so a $400 phrozen helps me sleep at night, and the prints come out better than outsourced models I get from nexdent printers. Ive already got an expensive refrigerator sized SLA mistake taking up space.

Ouch on the SLA printer, I had a boss that bought one and didn't work out for them either.

 

[mightymouse]

I'm looking at buying a Sonic Mini 8K S. I need to start getting familiar with 3D printing and curing. https://phrozen3d.com/products/phrozen-sonic-mini-8k-s-resin-3d-printer
I'm also thinking of getting their Wash and Cure kit. Is there something else anyone would suggest that may be better, or is that one a good starter one?

Wash & Cure Kit

Phrozen Wash & Cure Station Kit will supercharge your resin cleaning and curing process. Check it out to make your workflow faster and easier.

phrozen3d.com

What slicer software are you all using to import and work with .STL files?

For wash I use a small ultra sonic can’t remember if it’s from Harbor Freight or Amazon but it was no more than $50. Thing you want to make sure is it large enough for what you’re washing. So if you do a lot of models then get a bigger size if it’s for a few models (3 or less) the smaller sizes work great.

My step up is not the most time friendly but it’s efficient.
1) Dirty bath first for 3 minutes
2) Remove parts, use paper towel dabbed with IPA and scrub lightly.
3) Take dirty bath pour into container for use later (usually something smaller than the gallon it came in).
4) Pour clean IPA in empty ultra sonic and parts and clean for 1-2 minutes.
5) Repeat step 2 and 3 but with a separate container for the clean IPA.

I’ve been printing models, custom tray and night guards and have yet to use 2 gallons of IPA because it’s measured and specific to my print job. As opposed to a huge container.

In terms of curing unit think long term. Unless you can find a cure box under $500 that’s validated for your resin. It’s better to future proof the cure unit as resins are constantly being validated for use in dental.

 

[Car 54]

For wash I use a small ultra sonic can’t remember if it’s from Harbor Freight or Amazon but it was no more than $50. Thing you want to make sure is it large enough for what you’re washing. So if you do a lot of models then get a bigger size if it’s for a few models (3 or less) the smaller sizes work great.

My step up is not the most time friendly but it’s efficient.
1) Dirty bath first for 3 minutes
2) Remove parts, use paper towel dabbed with IPA and scrub lightly.
3) Take dirty bath pour into container for use later (usually something smaller than the gallon it came in).
4) Pour clean IPA in empty ultra sonic and parts and clean for 1-2 minutes.
5) Repeat step 2 and 3 but with a separate container for the clean IPA.

I’ve been printing models, custom tray and night guards and have yet to use 2 gallons of IPA because it’s measured and specific to my print job. As opposed to a huge container.

In terms of curing unit think long term. Unless you can find a cure box under $500 that’s validated for your resin. It’s better to future proof the cure unit as resins are constantly being validated for use in dental.

Thank you mightymouse, I appreciate it Would I be pushing it too far by asking what slicing software you use? I've seen their list:

Collection / Accessories

Make 3D printing easy with reliable tools and accessories

phrozen3d.com

as well as this:

Download the latest version of Lychee Slicer for SLA/Resin 3D Printers

Download the latest version of Lychee Slicer, for your favorite SLA 3D printer. Avaialble for Windows, Mac and Linux

mango3d.io

 

[tuyere]

RE: slicers, Prusa slicer is very good for job setup and part refinement- it has excellent supports, allows hollowing, hole drilling, part slicing and automatic hole+pin alignment features for sliced parts, you can add embossed/engraved text or primitive shapes, etc etc. I don't use it for actual slicing/job files, because my Elegoo printer required Chitubox for the final step, but you can just export your Prusa build as an STL, so it's great for prepping models for printing, then exporting as an STL, and nesting + slicing that with another program. Even though we have Asiga printers and use Composer for creating jobs, I still set up some parts in Prusa because its supports and extra functionality are far better than what Composer offers.