Refractory veneers

AcciDental

AcciDental

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Hello everyone!

Is there anyone who does refractory veneers? What kind of investment+ porcelain do you use? Has anyone done some e.max or d.sign refractory veneers? What are the temps to use...?
I'm going to start trying it out next week so if the results are all right, I'll continue with this thread :)
 
2thm8kr

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These are the two investments I used when I did refractory veneers.
http://www.gceurope.com/products/detail.php?id=78
http://www.gceurope.com/products/detail.php?id=79

I preferred the cosmovest because it has a finer grain structure and I felt I got better fitting margins with it.
I have used both d.sign and GC MC for veneers, both are great.
I'm not in front of my furnace to look up my temps, but 15-20 °C over my regular firing temps for d.sign or GC if I remember correctly.

I never liked low fusing porcelain for refractory veneers. To me it seems to get over fired pretty easy and gray if you have to make a few correction firings. Lower fusing porcelains don't always fire at a temperature that completely burns out some die separators or build up liquids. Refractory models are a lot of prep work and I hated having to start again if I used the wrong separator or had some pulls to correct. They also seem to collapse at the incisal edge sometimes.:banghead:
 
kimba

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I use noritake nori- vest and d sign porcelain for refractory veneers. I also used GC laminavest and only changed when my supplier had none in stock so I tried the noritake. Both worked fine. Nori-vest has a higher degass temp and seems a bit harder. If you are using emax ceram you will need a different investment to dsign porcelain, Noritake make norivest zirconia for zirk porcelain which I would assume would be fine for emax ceram
 
AcciDental

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Ok so at the moment I'm waiting until Shofu Laminavest and GC Cosmotech arrives here.. Right now I'll try out e.max Opal 1 ingots, but wax the veneers on investment. I saw some dusty old thread way back from the 00s here and some guys tried it with Empress Esthetic, so I hope it goes all good. Stay tuned!
 
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If you're pressing eMax ingots, why need investments?
 
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howitsmade

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what is the maximum thickness of refractory veneers?
 
AcciDental

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If you're pressing eMax ingots, why need investments?
I thought about it too.. But it's just an idea, how to make thin veneers. I'll try both ways anyway, the usual wax pressing and then wax+investment. If theres no difference, it's obviously easier to just wax and press.
If theres anyone doing the press+investment, feel free to join the conversation :)
 
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grantoz

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i always thought it was interesting trying to build all these colors and transluscencies into something thats 0.4mm thick, most of the time you cant see all the effort.Thats why i press and stain if i need extra incisal i will add some porcelain then stain i have had happy dentists doing veneers this way for years and they dont crack theme glueing them in nearly as much.
 
rkm rdt

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The advantage of refractory veneers is the ability to incorporate opacious porcelains into the process.

However they are very labour intensive. When your primary goal is to copy a diagnostic wax up from a matix ,it makes more sense to press.

Also lithium disilicate is stronger.
 
RDA

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You don't wax the veneers on investment. If you are going to use e.max, do your model work as usual, wax your veneers( either full contour for press and stain, or cut back for layering with porcelain.
I have used two methods for refractory veneers.
1.) Complete your model work as usual, including die spacer. Then duplicate the model, and preps with impression material. Pour the impression using a refractory investment, we use Nori-vest for Nortitake, or GC Vest from GC America. Let the pour set up in the impression for at least one hour, then burnout the refractory to 1500*F for one hour. Next run a degas cycle in your porcelain under vacuum up to 1976*F hold for fifteen minutes. Let the refractory model cool. Soak model in water before running a wash bake, then follow your normal porcelain build up methods, glaze , divest , and fit to master cast.
2.) We also use the foil technique. Swedge platinum foil to your master cast, lift off, deaden the foil over a flame, quench, re-apply to model, then normal porcelain build-up.
Both of these methods are much more labor intensive than a cut back e.max layered with porcelain.
Before using the Opal 1 ingots, make sure to check you final shade. The Opal 1's don't block a lot of color and are very bright. They are meant for thin veneers to re-contour, and slightly adjust the shade.

I hope some of this information is helpful to you.
 
Travis

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Moved the post to a new thread.
 
CatamountRob

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Who in 'da 'ell is mazman?
 
rkm rdt

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Who in 'da 'ell is mazman?
images
 
CatamountRob

CatamountRob

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I'm too freakin' old for this. I can't keep up with all the newbs. Lucky for me it's almost nap time.
 
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mazman

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Actually, I'm too old for this...I've been a CDT for almost 50 years! New to this forum because this old dog is learning new tricks...its either that or the glue factory.
 
zero_zero

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Actually, I'm too old for this...I've been a CDT for almost 50 years! New to this forum because this old dog is learning new tricks...its either that or the glue factory.

50 years behind the bench? OMG...don't think I could last that long...Afraid
 
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