re-used e-max button?

[paulg100]

dmon: maybe i am, im sure those guys profit margins are higher than mine because of the short cuts there taking, so maybe i am the stupid one.

Still i prefer to sleep at night knowing that what im sending out is technically sound, and im giving me clients what there paying for.

EDIT: Especially when it comes to bridge work!

 

[DMC]

I mix Sprite and Coke!!

Living like a wild man! Yeeah-Haaw!

 

[Mark Jackson]

PLEASE READ THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark,there seems to be something missing on your professional little photo.......a halo sitting on your bleached bit!!!I havnt seen anybody go mental on this forum about people pressing in a Whip Mix,or using different investments.These forums are FULL of these money saving Emax techniques.


I have no problem with the tools people use. I DO have a problem however when people start to adulterate FDA 510k materials which are designed to work as system. You cannot mix and match materials without altering the chemistry of the original design, and until you know how that combination of material performs in REAL scientific tests, it should not be done. Get a job in R&D if you want to play around. Don't experiment on people.

Mark,sometimes i re press an Emax ingot.

Then put this on your invoice. Better yet, ask permission from your patient and your client, and have at it. It's a stupid and dangerous practice and you have no business making crowns for peoples mouths.

I wil sign off now,
no fancy signs
no letters after my name
Dean....Technician


Why not post you last name then? If you are proud of this, tell us who you are. Surely you have THOSE letters after your first name. I'd like to know the name of your lab too. Doing the right thing means not having to hide from anything or anybody.

.

 

[Mark Jackson]

dmon: maybe i am, im sure those guys profit margins are higher than mine because of the short cuts there taking, so maybe i am the stupid one.

Still i prefer to sleep at night knowing that what im sending out is technically sound, and im giving me clients what there paying for.

EDIT: Especially when it comes to bridge work!

Congratulations. You are setting a good example, even in the face of those who will cheat their patients and their clients, and put their business and livlihood at risk to save $4.

 

[charles007]

I've got a box of emax button that I would love to sell to someone with a China connection.

 

[dmonwaxa]

dmon: maybe i am, im sure those guys profit margins are higher than mine because of the short cuts there taking, so maybe i am the stupid one.

Still i prefer to sleep at night knowing that what im sending out is technically sound, and im giving me clients what there paying for.

EDIT: Especially when it comes to bridge work!

paul, it's great to know some of us still stick by the basic principles. I remember in the earlydays of Zr, the copings and fmks came back lacking structural support; they were sent back to be redone. To this day I have yet to have the veneered material on a Zr crown or bridge fail. There are some things that are being advocated now by manufacturers and experienced techs that I was doing then that was not in the instructions. As long as we continue to be the betas for the big boys we have no choice but to experiment in some way.

 

[Mark Jackson]

As long as we continue to be the betas for the big boys we have no choice but to experiment in some way.

Troy, when we decide which vendors to work with, we need to choose those with a history of giving us materials that work as promised, and to hold them accountable for the products they bring to market. If you want to be the R&D department, you should get paid for it. I am beta testing products right now, and I bill the manufacturer for every case we produce, and in the cases where they go in the mouth, the dentist is being paid as well.

I'll invite one here to post if you'd like (or you can go to the IDF where he posts every day).

As long as we refuse to accept poor products, refuse to trouble shoot, and follow directions to the letter, we can charge them for the cases that fail. There is no excuse for experiementing on patients. We can't chalk it up as "the way things are".

 

[dmonwaxa]

Troy, when we decide which vendors to work with, we need to choose those with a history of giving us materials that work as promised, and to hold them accountable for the products they bring to market. If you want to be the R&D department, you should get paid for it. I am beta testing products right now, and I bill the manufacturer for every case we produce, and in the cases where they go in the mouth, the dentist is being paid as well.

I'll invite one here to post if you'd like (or you can go to the IDF where he posts every day).

As long as we refuse to accept poor products, refuse to trouble shoot, and follow directions to the letter, we can charge them for the cases that fail. There is no excuse for experiementing on patients. We can't chalk it up as "the way things are".

Mark, all due repect, but you are on the mountain lookin down. Try and remember the challenges you had starting out. I'm sure you've gained a lot of knowledge since then. Now try and put yourself in the position of the new labs and new techs today; the challenges and insufficient business savvy. You can see the challenge. Did you back then being a technician, not a business owner; experimented and troubleshoot etc. Did you accept poor products though unbeknownst to you? Sure you did. Now, here's a challenge, become an advocate for technicians, your stature in the industry only make it easier for us to hold manufacturers responsible in putting out products that workin a way they purport it to be. I bet some tech out thre sees the glossy ads in the glossy magzines and glossy pictures of pretty labwork done by experts on ideal models in a non production environment only to fall prey for what they're selling and finding out it doesn't look the same as the magazine's. We also have a responsibility to follow GMPs, I know, I know , and I agree 100%.

 

[Al.]

I've got a box of emax button that I would love to sell to someone with a China connection.

Ive been throwing mine away, never thought to save them, mabey Ill start saving mine and we can send them all to Tom and he can forward them all to Bejing.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, all due repect, but you are on the mountain lookin down.

It's all perspective Troy. It's no different from where I sit than where you sit. I may have a few more people, but I look out the window and see Keller and Glidewell and Micro and etc, etc. The only difference is, I still make the time to hang with my fellow labs owners.

Try and remember the challenges you had starting out. I'm sure you've gained a lot of knowledge since then. Now try and put yourself in the position of the new labs and new techs today; the challenges and insufficient business savvy. You can see the challenge.


I do. I'm trying to share the wreckage from my mistakes. I don't want you to go through what I went through!

Did you back then being a technician, not a business owner; experimented and troubleshoot etc. Did you accept poor products though unbeknownst to you? Sure you did.


We had to back then. That all changed in 2003. If you want to hear about it, come to my program in Indy, and the one in Denver in the fall. I share all the gory details.

Now, here's a challenge, become an advocate for technicians, your stature in the industry only make it easier for us to hold manufacturers responsible in putting out products that workin a way they purport it to be.

Dude, that's what I'm doing! But first we need to clean up our side of the street. When they can trust us to follow directions and not screw up their products, the whole dynamic will change.

.

 

[Clear Precision Dental]

I apologize to my fellow techs utilizing eMax as a restorative material/medical device regarding my comments about the repressing of ingots. I stand corrected.

I visted each dental office IN PERSON regarding patient cases in which a re-pressed igot was used. Thankfully, there were very few cases. I explained my error, and provided an unconditional replacement for every restoration (needed or desired) involved in this situation. I also provided a letter from my laboratory to be given to the patients involved regarding the same. Oddly, my relationships with each of these offices deepened as a result. The honesty and integrity following the error was sincerely appreciated.

My most sincere apology goes out to you fellow technicians here at DLN who have been instrumental in helping me become a better technician, and specifically, Al, whom I admire. I would never want to be a reason for a good material to get a negative review because of mishandling or inappropriate use.

 

[dmonwaxa]

I apologize to my fellow techs utilizing eMax as a restorative material/medical device regarding my comments about the repressing of ingots. I stand corrected.

I visted each dental office IN PERSON regarding patient cases in which a re-pressed igot was used. Thankfully, there were very few cases. I explained my error, and provided an unconditional replacement for every restoration (needed or desired) involved in this situation. I also provided a letter from my laboratory to be given to the patients involved regarding the same. Oddly, my relationships with each of these offices deepened as a result. The honesty and integrity following the error was sincerely appreciated.

My most sincere apology goes out to you fellow technicians here at DLN who have been instrumental in helping me become a better technician, and specifically, Al, whom I admire. I would never want to be a reason for a good material to get a negative review because of mishandling or inappropriate use.

CPD, great for you. Way to take the stand and man up. Hopefully others might notice integrity still exists here on DLN

 

[odchamp]

Holy mackeral, i only asked a simple question, yes or no would have done:

 

[TheLabGuy]

I apologize to my fellow techs utilizing eMax as a restorative material/medical device regarding my comments about the repressing of ingots. I stand corrected.

I visted each dental office IN PERSON regarding patient cases in which a re-pressed igot was used. Thankfully, there were very few cases. I explained my error, and provided an unconditional replacement for every restoration (needed or desired) involved in this situation. I also provided a letter from my laboratory to be given to the patients involved regarding the same. Oddly, my relationships with each of these offices deepened as a result. The honesty and integrity following the error was sincerely appreciated.

My most sincere apology goes out to you fellow technicians here at DLN who have been instrumental in helping me become a better technician, and specifically, Al, whom I admire. I would never want to be a reason for a good material to get a negative review because of mishandling or inappropriate use.

Wow.....kudos to you for that!!!!! Has anyone contacted Ivoclar though? I know we throw shlt out there off the top of our heads all the time, but I'm curious what the manufacturer has to say, anyone?

 

[dhdc]

Good point Lab Guy,what is ivoclars stand on this.This job is not an "ideal world"
Lets hope we don't have to contact all our clients for whom we may have had to 1,Fire a bridge 5 times
2,add a contact to a full press Emax
3,re seal a margin
4,Cast a rush post in a 15 min burn out
5,build an amount of unsupported porcelain onto a restoration
6,solder a gold crown

All of these things we have all had to do at some stage,and they all compromise the perfect job,i don't care how high up the mountain people think they are,this is the reality of our job,like it or not

 

[user name]

These comments are of an adult nature, and is intended for a mature audience. I confess, I am a mad scientist. More mad than science. I have used an old ingot for a push to fill the button and sprues once or twice when the wax weight was just a tad over. I dont try to save money. Because Im a 'boutique' lab and not a factory, 90% of my pressings are single unit. All fresh, never frozen, prime choice ingots. I have in fact done the goofy tests I described earlier...just because. Im always curious what things will do. No Mark...they havent gone in the mouth. I take my responsibilities very seriously.
If you read somthing Ive written and you think,"no way. Youve got to be kidding", I probably am.
I consider this site one of the most valuable tools in my lab. A little humor and sarcasm can be fun...right? One thing I think would be interesting to do..Press and then repress two identical patterns from one ingot and send them to a crime lab, Ivoclar, Mark or some less mad scientist and see if the can tell which is acceptable and 'virgin'.
I have asked my Rep about repressing, and they said its not recommended but they know its being done.

Comments and opinions made by Bob (user name) are not necessarily endorsed by Bob, his affiliates or sponsors.

 

[odchamp]

user name, i like your views, sending Ivoclar "A" and "B" buttons with a full press attached to it sounds a good idea.
Then once and for all they can come back with an answer, which one is the re used button, why, and how they have come to that decision.
As for having a laugh i agree yes it is an important job we do, so a bit of fun keeps us all going, as long as we all do the best we can and continue to learn that's good.
Our industry is going through a lot of changes so it is going to take a little while for all of us to get up to speed on materials, that's what is so good about this forum, if little old me had not asked the basic simple question about waste a lot of us (not me) would still be using old pellets, so it's been good to discuss this issue.
Fellow technicians might be put off asking simple questions like mine in fear of being ridiculed and really we don't want that to happen.
I doubt very much if we were all having a beer together we would talk to each other the way we do behind our key pads, we are all in this together so chill out inform but stop the nasty stuff or i'll break your legs:crutch::crutch::crutch:

 

[doug]

Just curious, would there be a difference in the appearance of the glass if two crowns, one new ingot and one re-used ingot, were put in a Scanning Electron Microscope? Crystal structure or what ever they would be looking at for?

 

[TheLabGuy]

Just curious, would there be a difference in the appearance of the glass if two crowns, one new ingot and one re-used ingot, were put in a Scanning Electron Microscope? Crystal structure or what ever they would be looking at for?

That would be one way to test it Doug, I would also get with NYU and use their load-bearing machine and see if strength is the same if the SEM doesn't show any differences.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Just curious, would there be a difference in the appearance of the glass if two crowns, one new ingot and one re-used ingot, were put in a Scanning Electron Microscope? Crystal structure or what ever they would be looking at for?

Ditto, Doug. I wa.s thinking the same thing. Then run some cyclic tests.