Phrozen 4k 2022

[MandyC]

Hi all, I am a new grad (dentist),wanting to print my own models for orthodontics and also make retainers. Anyone is using Phrozen 4k? What's your opinion on this machine? Will it be accurate enough to print models for making retainers? Thank you so much for your help.

(I would love to get a Asiga Max UV or the Sprintray 95s but it is just not financially possible at the moment).

 

[RDA]

DLP is on the way out. Look into LCD printers.
https://ackuretta.com/products/sol-dental-3d-printer
Don't get into a locked system. You will want to be able to use other manufacturer's resins.
Fro more information, contact Jennifer Knott.
https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.j.knott
She helped us with our printer needs.

 

[Brett Hansen CDT]

You may want to outsource the printing until you can afford a decent printer. That's what we did when we first got into milling and printing. We outsourced until we had got to the point where it made financial sense to purchase a mill or printer to do those jobs in house.

 

[mightymouse]

DLP is on the way out. Look into LCD printers.

As someone who will be in the market to add a more accurate printer to my inventory could you explain why DLP is on the way out? Curious as I was under the assumption that DLP is what you wanted to get.

 

[bigj1972]

DLP vs LCD

 

[MandyC]

Thank you everyone for your input.

Phrozen sonic 4k is around aud$2k
Ackuretta sol is around aud$8k.

I can easily buy the phrozen printer without any issues (heck, I can buy it with my own money). But, I will need to convince the clinic owner to get the more expensive printer (who told me to calculate the ROI etc etc, which is totally fair). He is a hard man to please (lol).

I read somewhere in the forum that the Phrozen printer is better than the "$$$" dental printer, thats why I am considering it. Plus, it is cheap enough that if I decided not to go ahead with 3d printing I can just store it somewhere.

On the other hand, the ease of using the software and support are also important to me because I don't know a lot about 3d printing yet.

The printing speed is not an issue for me, I am anticipating only printing 4sets of models per week and I won't be printing dentures. Just dental models for retainers and may be some aligners.

Anyone here have used phrozen or ackruretta? How's their software like?

 

[mightymouse]

Thanks bigj1972 for the article. I was aware of the technical differences but gained knowledge with the cost portion of the article. Other than cheaper cost I’m trying to figure out why it would be on the way out. I understand that for larger builds quality is lost the larger the build is. But everything in digital dentistry is only as large as someone’s mouth. So why the trend of DLP moving out of the top spot?

 

[bigj1972]

Your welcome. We are all brothers. In between the insults and jabs.

 

[bigj1972]

The Phrozen model to buy now seems to be the mighty 4k. I believe the switch is about longer lasting uv leds in an arranged array that has better definition. Early DLP had a problem using standard LCDs for masking the layer. Also being projection, the early models of Phrozen printers Shuffle and Shuffle XL, they were the same printer but the XL had a larger build plate. To make that build plate work, they increased the distance between projector and screen mask (think cone of a flashlight) which also increased the voxel size (think hand puppet closer then further away from light source to change size). Therefore it affected accuracy or minimal resolution.

So all that being said....the hope is a UV led array will last longer than a masking LCD (Less replacement) and be more accurate as well. One thing to keep in mind, resin 3d printers are not just you buy it and refill with resin. The have consumables. Which is vat film, resin, AND the screens themselves. They burn out, become damaged, or just quit working. You replace and keep going. It's not like a TV or monitor that last 20 years.

 

[bigj1972]

Thank you everyone for your input.

Phrozen sonic 4k is around aud$2k
Ackuretta sol is around aud$8k.

I can easily buy the phrozen printer without any issues (heck, I can buy it with my own money). But, I will need to convince the clinic owner to get the more expensive printer (who told me to calculate the ROI etc etc, which is totally fair). He is a hard man to please (lol).

I read somewhere in the forum that the Phrozen printer is better than the "$$$" dental printer, thats why I am considering it. Plus, it is cheap enough that if I decided not to go ahead with 3d printing I can just store it somewhere.

On the other hand, the ease of using the software and support are also important to me because I don't know a lot about 3d printing yet.

The printing speed is not an issue for me, I am anticipating only printing 4sets of models per week and I won't be printing dentures. Just dental models for retainers and may be some aligners.

Anyone here have used phrozen or ackruretta? How's their software like?

As far as software,.I don't know about ackuretta, but 3d printers only have their firmware which basically is start, stop, configure, que. Basic printer function to take the file you feed it and then start. The model (STL) you will create with your design software..And then from there use a slicer or "build plate arrangement" software on your PC to create the print file to feed the printer.

Best advice I could give anyone new getting into 3D resin printing. Don't got buy an 8K+ printer and try to start learning. First go to Amazon and buy a hobby level printer or even a Phrozen. And use it to tech yourself the technology. It's all practically the same. If your kid just got his learner permit,.you wouldn't give him a Lambo to learn with. Those printers are cheap, cheap to learn on, and cheap to screw up on. Get familiar with workflow and materials. Then once you understand what's going on and print a few STLs from Thingiverse, you'll be more knowledgeable to make a big commitment, or just decide to stay hobby level and print Iron Man's.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

As far as software,.I don't know about ackuretta, but 3d printers only have their firmware which basically is start, stop, configure, que. Basic printer function to take the file you feed it and then start. The model (STL) you will create with your design software..And then from there use a slicer or "build plate arrangement" software on your PC to create the print file to feed the printer.

Best advice I could give anyone new getting into 3D resin printing. Don't got buy an 8K+ printer and try to start learning. First go to Amazon and buy a hobby level printer or even a Phrozen. And use it to tech yourself the technology. It's all practically the same. If your kid just got his learner permit,.you wouldn't give him a Lambo to learn with. Those printers are cheap, cheap to learn on, and cheap to screw up on. Get familiar with workflow and materials. Then once you understand what's going on and print a few STLs from Thingiverse, you'll be more knowledgeable to make a big commitment, or just decide to stay hobby level and print Iron Man's.

conversely, buying a higher ticket "dental" printer offers the support that one might need to properly dive into this technology without spending a few weeks or months playing around at home. there are options out there that arent the big boys at $20k+. they can offer some beginners training and tech support when you screw things up (and you will cause we all do!).

then comes the resin side of things. open or closed source printers.....for fairly obvious reasons most people would lean more toward the machines that will permit a variety of resins to be utilized. phrozen, anycubic, sprintray, shining3d, all have lower entry point models and i believe are open for multiple resins. someone can kick me here if i am wrong, too lazy to google at the moment lol

 

[Foggy_in_RI]

Cost is important but patient safety should drive the decision making process.

Printers are part of the FDA listing requirement for non-exempt resins. If a printer manufacturer claims a non-exempt resin works that printer company needs to coordinate with the resin manufacturer to update the FDA listing provided the printer and resin manufacturers agree its a validated solution.

 

[Jenners]

Phrozen is up to 8K (resolution) machines now. The SM8K runs about $600 with a 7.1 inch build plate and the Mighty is $1600 and I think it's 10 inches? Probably bigger. I have a SM4K and do accurate crown and bridge models. But we're not that busy and I can get away with a small machine for now until I pick up more work . Also, Epax has some nice machines. They have a dental division now with a separate website.

 

[fazident]

Just got sonic 4k 2022.... amazing prints, very easy to use.... quite fast.... at 50 microns on z 2 models flat in 1h and 45 min.

 

[zero_zero]

I used to have two Shuffles, one Sonic 4k and one Sonic mini, great print quality... if properly setup, will easily match the output of the more $$$ "dental" printers out there. Easy to repair as well... IIRC, I did post here a lot about them

 

[bigj1972]

I used to have two Shuffles, one Sonic 4k and one Sonic mini, great print quality... if properly setup, will easily match the output of the more $$$ "dental" printers out there. Easy to repair as well... IIRC, I did post here a lot about them

I remember...Good thread;

 

[PressTech]

Hi all, I am a new grad (dentist),wanting to print my own models for orthodontics and also make retainers. Anyone is using Phrozen 4k? What's your opinion on this machine? Will it be accurate enough to print models for making retainers? Thank you so much for your help.

(I would love to get a Asiga Max UV or the Sprintray 95s but it is just not financially possible at the moment).

 

[PressTech]

That printer will be good enough to make models suitable to thermoform clear aligners or clear retainers, however to make hawley retainers you will have to use a very dedicated separator that is high on cost, it is needed because to separate acrylic from the surface of a printed model is very difficult if not impossible. The slicer software might be another expense if you want to open more posibilities with other resins as the basic slicer from phrozen is limited to their resins and a few others. Make sure of the dimensional stability of the resin you will use as the water based resins tend to keep and loose water and might loose its correct dimension, more important even if the models are for crown and bridge or implant work, hope this little info helps.

 

[bigj1972]

Like I've said before, to anyone new wanting to get into 3d printing. Spend the $300 for a phrozen or anycubic. It's all practically the same technology. The processes are the same. Learn with it. Not for 12 months or 10 years of production, but for testing. Don't do like computers and pick at fastest cpu or gpu or whether it ddr4 ram....... For a piddly 300 bucks you can start learning and doing in a couple days.

And the biggest hurdle is not deciding how many microns this printer is to that printer or your Z rise speed, or how accurate is accurate. It's whether you want to bother learning a new method of manufacturing that is NOT push button, is a different kind of labor, is messy and greasy, is gonna require a new workspace, new chemicals, and a paradigm shift from the hammer & nail.

Surely, you would like to find out if this is gonna be a right fit for you BEFORE spending $8k+ for the "right one". Because at that point your committed. Then your computers gonna suck if it's not built for cad so you'll need a better one. Then you need a post cure station and $100 to $300 bottles of resin.

Some of you guys probably have trouble hooking up and operating a sound bar on your TV, with all due respect. Better to shelve $300 than $8k.

And then again if you love it, you'll be much more familiar with 3d resin printing so you can do some informed decision making instead of reading advertisements.