My Hair Brain Idea...Need Opinions

[charles007]

Wha ya think techies ....
I've used Noble alloys for ceramics forever... in the 25 to 28% ag and 60% Pd range with never a problem, using non greening porcelains and using correct CTE range with my porcelain........With the higher price of palladium plus I will also start milling zir, I'm thinking about dropping Noble and using something like Bego Wirebond 280... nickel and beryllium free.........or something like this as a budget pfm crown, maybe pressed to NP and using GC ingots / Lustre Paste. Also hoping full contour zir will replace this in the near future as my budget crown instead of using NP.
My menu will consist of a budget crown/with NP, Emax, and Zirconia crowns- layered, pressed and partically full contour veneered and full contour Zir...... and dropping full cast gold as soon as BruxZir takes off......

I HATE metal finishing, may send scans for np coping, plus I can cast np at .2all day long without misscast.....at least I did in the 80's using Rex 3 and Tilite alloys at .1 to .2. Don't know how thin Chrome alloys can be cast.

I'm getting screwed everyday with my fixed price using Noble on my PFMS..... VERY BAD IDEA... duh reason for dropping Noble.... Also want Zir to replace my pfm/noble with comparable price.

I maybe the first lab with this hair brain idea, but I think more labs might just go this way......Alloys are getting to costly to use in a lab.
Need opinions of this WILD idea.........
I'm going digital guys, You'all can play with your porcelains brushes while I play with my keyboard keys and bill out cases.....

Give me the good,bad and ugly of this idea !

Charles

 

[rkm rdt]

I tried the cc alloys and hated the black oxides.Brutal to polish.

Do your Drs send to you because of price or quality?

 

[Accutech]

First time posting long time lurker here. Anyway I think it's a great idea. I'm in the process of doing something similar as well. I'm not getting rid of my PFGs per se, but I am discouraging my accounts with crazy prices. I plan to offer them the following in this order by price. PFM, Origin zirconia, E-max / sculpture, LAVA / bruxzir and finally PFG.
I'm scared to death I will be pushing my long time loyal accounts away, but I think soon enough they'll see the logic ($$) and come around. As it stands, more than 40% of my work is CAD CAM based anyways. I strongly believe there is an ideal material for every situation and not one 'thing' will replace every other material we use everyday. As of now though, it just makes sense to offer less gold type restorations and embrace the CAD CAM future.
In any case, I'll let you know how many accounts I lose with this crazy idea.

 

[Accutech]

First time posting long time lurker here. Anyway I think it's a great idea. I'm in the process of doing something similar as well. I'm not getting rid of my PFGs per se, but I am discouraging my accounts with crazy prices. I plan to offer them the following in this order by price. PFM, Origin zirconia, E-max / sculpture, LAVA / bruxzir and finally PFG.
I'm scared to death I will be pushing my long time loyal accounts away, but I think soon enough they'll see the logic ($$) and come around. As it stands, more than 40% of my work is CAD CAM based anyways. I strongly believe there is an ideal material for every situation and not one 'thing' will replace every other material we use everyday. As of now though, it just makes sense to offer less gold type restorations and embrace the CAD CAM future.
In any case, I'll let you know how many accounts I lose with this crazy idea.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Do your Drs send to you because of price or quality?

They send to me because I'm better looking than you popcorn

 

[rkm rdt]

They send to me because I'm better looking than you popcorn

Careful Fabio, or I'll smoke you upside the head with a canada goose!

 

[TheLabGuy]

Well it's better than some of your moose, that's for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[charles007]

I'm a small lab with only a few accounts, but large......My prices have evolved into low prices from not raising my prices every year. (LABS SHOULD ALWAYS RAISE THEIR PRICES A FEW DOLLARS EVERY YEAR) I work with higher quality doctors with FEW remakes if any, I can count with one hand. At one time, I had the highest prices in town.
I really think full contoured will take over most average pfm single posterior within the next 12 to 24 months in the above average lab with cad/cam or scanner.......
I'm buying a milling machine when I probably should only buy a scanner being a small lab. I truly think monolithic type crowns will exploded later next year and I will be able to mill quickly and delivering second day crowns...
My guess, NP will be used by smaller labs of the future that can't afford cad/cam or scanner, AND THEN DIE OF STARVATION.........

I had a vision to become a 100% digital lab over 2 years ago, and its been a long learning road to know what to buy, who to buy from, and what kind of crown to make for the future........
In my crystal ball, I see zir the framework and crown of choice, HN and Noble going down hill and NP increasing for the short term then disappearing in the future.......Titanium, have no clue and don't care. Resin will jump in the flow of crowns at any time.
Now you have everything but my SS # GOOD IDEA, BAD IDEA... are there any problems using NP..... Dark oxides are not a problem, bonding problems can be a nightmare, and I'm not going down that road.........Don't use np now, and haven't in 20 years.
I think NP will be a short term use for me..... less than 1 year with any luck at all........

 

[Accutech]

I hate working with NPs because it's more difficult to cast but for an average lab like me, the end results look the same as any PFG. I don't see NPs disappearing because it's the only product that I can turn around in 24 hours to my dentists if need be. Since I outsource my CAD CAM rush cases are out of the question. I had a Cerec in lab for almost six years since way back when it was black and white and in two dimensional. Even with the improvements and updates I couldn't turn a case around as quick as a PFM/PFG.
I also think CAD CAM is the future. Stable prices (if anything cheaper to make as time progresses) and just as predictable to make. Forget about gold. Pretty soon it's only going to be wanted by people with high level of disposable income.

 

[Accutech]

Oh and forget about even buying another CAD CAM unit. With this technology in it's infancy and with new stuff coming out all the time, I'll stick to outsourcing for now and make the milling centers rich. I'm stuck with this stupid cerec (although it served me well) that has no demand and is obsolete. Anyone want a like new ineos scanner and sinter furnace?

 

[charles007]

Call me over the weekend, I can teach you to cast NP between .1 -.2. and almost never have an miscast........correct sprues, thermal zone ? hot crucifle, correct torch setting , quickly casing... = .2 casting
Blackout ALL undercuts to keep from having tight fits! Try the peel off die spacer like you use with pressables if your having tight fits...
If you wax thin, there is little to finish......

 

[Accutech]

That's crazy skills. I usually cast my NPs thicker than my gold since I suck at casting NPs. I would love to be able to cast like you. Save time 'milling' my NPs. I'm 39 yrs old and have been in this industry for 16 yrs. I believe what you say but honestly I have never ever seen anyone do that. Gonna have to hit you up and learn from you one of these days.

 

[charles007]

Accutech, I know you don't believe me, I wouldn't either if a stranger told me to cast at .2
Back when I used NP, I set my wax pot to dip between .2 and .3 no thicker. When you you cast, you end up seeing spots at .1. and try to achieve .2 except where you build up the frame.
I now cast plad -silver alloys between .3 and under .4.
PM your tel # , I'll tell you how to cast with very little metal finishing. All my techniques are in books......except where I place the sprue. I sprue the marginal ridges on posteriors. On thicker crs, sprue the thickest area. Anteriors, sprue the mesial or distal incisal edge. This spring technique will save time on metal finishing time and keep you from grinding holes on the facial of anteriors and buccal-lingual on posteriors where you normally place the sprue.
I normally have one miscast about every 3 to 4 months on one crown in the ring. Haven't seen a miscast since, maybe Nov. ... can't remember.

 

[Accutech]

I believe you and tomorrow I'm gonna try it out. I have a #30 that came in today requesting NP so I'll wax it up like you said and give it a go. If it works I'll file it under 'I learn something new everyday' and I'll be sure to thank you

 

[rkm rdt]

LOL @ labguy

 

[corbett]

Try Talladium it isnt cheap compared to other np alloys but cheaper than noble and better than most low budget noble. I cast it twice, no problems. no greening just good all around. I even use it for porcelain over RPD frames. Cant remember when I had a miscast. Its worth taking a look at. I use it because I believe it is the best NP with out question.

 

[charles007]

Talladium Tilite is what I used also. I don't recommend melting buttons even though Talladium says it ok. Very foolish to try and save pennies and end up with a bunch of miscast. Its very hard to melt a button and new ingots at the same time......
Today, I would never use nickel - beryllium alloys, and buy from a good company. No cheap chit.

 

[amadent]

Try Talladium it isnt cheap compared to other np alloys but cheaper than noble and better than most low budget noble. I cast it twice, no problems. no greening just good all around. I even use it for porcelain over RPD frames. Cant remember when I had a miscast. Its worth taking a look at. I use it because I believe it is the best NP with out question.

we have used their Ti-Lite for a number of years
you are correct that it is expensive compared to other NP, but we feel it is far better
great results every time-
with ever rising alloy cost we have turned a few of our account on to the tilite for large span bridge work- to save both parties on metal cost

 

[charles007]

I believe you and tomorrow I'm gonna try it out. I have a #30 that came in today requesting NP so I'll wax it up like you said and give it a go. If it works I'll file it under 'I learn something new everyday' and I'll be sure to thank you

Accutech... follow these rules very carefully for thin casting :

Wax .3 no less on your first case with buildup where needed. Add your M&D wings for support.
Blackout all undercuts and sharp edges.. very important for good fits
8g sprue.
Place crowns near the outside wall, out of the thermal zone- heat zone,
Pour investment 1/4 above the patterns, NO MORE all patterns about the same height !
Burn out at 16 or 1700 ,depends on investment , one hr, 10 minutes extra per addition ring.
Preheat crucible for 10 minutes, or place in oven from beginning. preheat ingots if you want to... this step is very important !
35 to 40 LB OXY. using Tilite
Preheat the crucible again with torch for a few seconds. place ingots close together. I used to preheat crucible and ingots at the same time.
Heat the alloy and keep moving your torch back and forth ! very important ! When you see it slump, take ring out immediately, and cast quickly !
Use 1 to 1.5 extra turns on casting machine.. 1 to 1.5 extra turns than noble ceramic alloys.
Push off the casting arm so it takes off gently.
It should take you about 30 seconds to heat the metal, take ring out and release arm... In other words, approx 20 seconds to heat NP using a multi-orifice tip, and preheat crucible, depending on the amount of ingots.
KEEP MOVING YOUR TORCH SO ALL INGOTS ARE HEATED.
Good Luck

 

[DMC]

Oh and forget about even buying another CAD CAM unit. With this technology in it's infancy and with new stuff coming out all the time, I'll stick to outsourcing for now and make the milling centers rich. I'm stuck with this stupid cerec (although it served me well) that has no demand and is obsolete. Anyone want a like new ineos scanner and sinter furnace?

I'll be glad to rapid-prototype units from your Sirona scanner. Dirt cheap!

Or Bruxzir, or other Zirconia.

You can send CDT files.

We are doing this for many labs, including some right around the corner from ya.

Scott

(This thread is funny!@#$%)