Imes or Vhf?

RDA

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AG is closed. I really don't know much about the mill other than the fact that you will need to buy materials from AG. Why would anyone ever buy in, to close out potential new materials?
On another note, AG has a great name in Europe and produces some really good stuff. We use the Artex articulator (made bu AG) and love it.
What is your opinion on Jensen's Preciso system?
 
zero_zero

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Anyone make an adapter for AG material to be used in 98mm configuration. I want to try the sintron.

Talk with your local machine shop...they could cut you an adaptor given you supply them with measurements...and beer...;)
 
Affinity

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AG is closed. I really don't know much about the mill other than the fact that you will need to buy materials from AG. Why would anyone ever buy in, to close out potential new materials?
On another note, AG has a great name in Europe and produces some really good stuff. We use the Artex articulator (made bu AG) and love it.


Sorry BOB but youre wrong. You dont need to buy from AG, in fact I use sagemaxx. There are at least a half dozen reputable companies selling zr/wax/pmma for the ceramill. Youve tried saying this before, but its still not the case.

Sintron is different, it is proprietary material.

And John yes you can get an adapter for sintron, but why would you want to? You have to buy a $16k furnace to fire it in....?:confused:

PS. The ceramill is an awesome little mill, I will put it up against any other table top. Fit/price/quality components.
 
zero_zero

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Do you know the parameters Sintron is fired at ? Is it done under a protective atmosphere like Argon ?
 
Affinity

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Yes argon gas environment, but similar to zr firing temps.. I think. Doesnt interest me really. I think LACeramics uses it..?
 
LA Ceramics

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AG is closed. I really don't know much about the mill other than the fact that you will need to buy materials from AG. Why would anyone ever buy in, to close out potential new materials?
On another note, AG has a great name in Europe and produces some really good stuff. We use the Artex articulator (made bu AG) and love it.

Bob,..Cmon dude,...why would ya man

Take a look at the shape of pucks that the Ceramill uses, not 98mm
Its open, but not to 98mm pucks.. ;) lol

Or you could say,..look at that machine,.it doesn't mill " D shape blocks so it's closed to D shape blocks,..right?

If it not 98mm it is CLOSED.

Bob,......nevermind,....too easy


Anyone make an adapter for AG material to be used in 98mm configuration. I want to try the sintron.

A lab down the street just bought the Argotherm furnace,..he has a Zubler mill and the D blocks fit his fixture (look at them sometime and you'll see for yourself right away). The problem comes in when you are doing your nesting but he told me they fixed it for him using some kind of template. I don't know how it works cuz I haven't had a chance to visit yet but he said it works no probs. Call AG and ask ,..that's what I do...

Sorry BOB but youre wrong. You dont need to buy from AG, in fact I use sagemaxx. There are at least a half dozen reputable companies selling zr/wax/pmma for the ceramill. Youve tried saying this before, but its still not the case.

Sintron is different, it is proprietary material.

And John yes you can get an adapter for sintron, but why would you want to? You have to buy a $16k furnace to fire it in....?:confused:

PS. The ceramill is an awesome little mill, I will put it up against any other table top. Fit/price/quality components.

Right on it Affinity,...but let's see now,..if you want to do Zirc it requires you to buy a sintering oven and if you want to do sintron it requires you to buy an argon type sintering oven,..good news is that if you don't want to do sintron then you are not required to buy an argon type sintering oven so I guess that means alot of you can breathe a little easier. Bottom line,..if you do alot of NP stuff you absolutely MUST look at this stuff,..it fits so perfect it's just unreal and the first thing you'll do after you see it work for yourself is ****e all up the back of your shirt. Now rest assured that I do care very much about my fellow lab peeps but listen up..you need to WAKE UP MAN!! I just don't get why anybody in this digital age would be casting metal for any reason,..Sorry,...I feel better now

Yes argon gas environment, but similar to zr firing temps.. I think. Doesnt interest me really. I think LACeramics uses it..?

Yes we do,.. and not everybody needs it. ,..remember,.. I ain't sellin',..just tellin,..peace:cool:
 
Affinity

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Great post! Duude.. youre like ... so .. LA.

I used to do a lot of wirobond C PFMs, I lovved the bond, its a great NP metal. But its just not a direction I think most non-production labs want to go. NP in 2014 and beyond?? Just because you can doesnt mean you should.
 
cadfan

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Motion 2 If you want to use sintron bye 98 mm pucks they are available in the real world maybe not FDA proofed just ask AG
for the money of the oven you get a real mill that mills real stuff with full indication and no sinter distortion and only 4 units
as open as any zz system but 1 or 2 years behind maybe historical reasons pucks from only a few brands
whats the difference btw vhf and ag vhf is build for resellers some with more some with less brain
wieland for example has experience from their time as they had a factory together with imes now each one goes his own way and they own a milling center bought the old one from AG a few years ago and AG build a new one.

Which system ( mill) from jensen do you mean the vhf ( mini) or the primacon ( Helios 500)
 
BobCDT

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Sorry BOB but youre wrong. You dont need to buy from AG, in fact I use sagemaxx. There are at least a half dozen reputable companies selling zr/wax/pmma for the ceramill. Youve tried saying this before, but its still not the case.
I had written a response last night and decided not to post it. then saw more posts this AM and decided to to provide my point of view. Before I do so i will disclose the following. Yes I sell mills. A lot of them. Please let me assure you my feeling here are not because I'm interested in selling you a mill. When posting I am always trying to share with an open mind. At CAP we really want what is best for the lab that we are speaking with. If we don't have the right solution we tell them. If CAD CAM is not right for them we tell them. That said, here we go.
Sorry, I don't think limiting yourself to even six material manufacturers is wise. Things are changing so fast. There are several dozen companies working on new materials. In fact, we are testing a super translucent 600MPa zirconia material now. Yes, it's a 98mm disk. What happens when one of these new material makes a huge splash in the market and they have only a 98mm form factor? If your mill holds a "D" shaped disc, your out! To me, thats closed. Why buy a mill that knowing, this could happen? We don't know what we don't know. What we do know, it's extremely likely that any new material form factor will either be a small block on a mandrill or a 98mm disc.
I really don't know too much about the AG mill. But, I know AG make great stuff. So i will go under teh assumption and agree with those that have it that is works very well. The company is full of great minds and they have brought some awesome products to the lab market. I do know there are many mills that mill zirconia very very well, are economical and facilitate a standard 98mm discs. From my perspective (I know I'm not always right) buying a mill for milling dental zirconia should include a fixture that holds a 98mm disc. Anything else and one could easily end up with buyers remorse.
 
NicelyMKV

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I don't know Bob...... I heard Wieland owns the patent to the 98mm form factor?? Lol j/k


If you never make a decision then your possibilities are endless.
 
BobCDT

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As you know, Ivoclar purchased Weiland a few months ago and with that, the rights to all Weiland IP. They have contacted several manufacturers about this patent attempting to work out a financial settlement. A month ago a group of disc manufacturers in Germany challenged the Weiland patent and won the case. Germany being the country of origin for the patent, and subsequent nullifying it makes it void. In addition the patent was far more broad than a 98 circle. If you read it, it probably included the AG disc shape as well. But, it's all history now.
 
Affinity

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Bob, youre assuming people need and want a zirconia that is more translucent than what we already have.. Sagemaxx is plenty translucent. I dont need clear zirconia. Just because we get more and more new products rammed down our throat by everyone out there selling them, doesnt mean we need them. IMO the motion2 is a complete CAM solution... Dentures, e.max, titanium abutments, zirconia, splints, models, NP.. what else do you need from a table top mill?

Who's to say that AG hasnt surpassed any other offerings in the industry? Just because you cant use a 98mm puck? Or just because you cant sell AG users your 98mm puck? Any reputable mfg. of zirconia in the industry will offer a D shape puck in time, even if its not their first offering..
 
cadfan

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The funny thing is AG is selling 98 mm pucks zirkon and sintron they know very well how to try to close a system and pucks are only one point their are still a few more.An Stl makes a system not open.
 
LA Ceramics

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So far I have been able to mill any material I have ever heard of,..in any manner I nave ever heard of. I have excepted stl files from any lab or doc who has sent it and milled it with no problems. I've sent files with no problems. I also will soon be milling dentures and vita's new suprimity as well as the new hybrid zirconia/LiS colloid type stuff which by the way is being offered in D blocks as soon as the feds decide that they've wasted enough of everyones time and money.If it's really a closed system though I'm gonna have to start thinking of a reason to be really angry because it would be weird to be wailing on somebody's behind while I' lookin' all happy and sh1t. Sheeeez!
 
LA Ceramics

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Anybody got anything besides that 98 mm problem,..I'm trying to muster up something more than just a little mild indifference,...............
 
Joe

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I tried out the whole AG ceramill system. Scanner was REALLY slow, CAD is exocad (which I'm sure I could get used to- but I still prefer 3shape),the mill is 5 axis wet dry, the furnace was a furnace. I liked it a lot more when I designed in 3shape and just used the CAM and mill, but the system is so cumbersome and clunky. More suited to walking a single unit all the way through, not production work. If I had to get 50 FCZ crowns through that thing in a day I would go crazy. Main reason we didn't go for it was materials cost / limitations and AG selling as a package (not just CAM and mill).
 
Joe

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oh, and the stupid names the software modules have. I was constantly opening CeramillMall when I really wanted CeramillMind... or the other way around
 
Affinity

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I will agree with you that a 3shape blows the map scanner out of the water.. but were talking mills here. Maybe the map 400 is faster?
 
Bumfrey

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Anyone make an adapter for AG material to be used in 98mm configuration. I want to try the sintron.
Me too. I asked about it a couple of days ago over here in Australia. They 'say' they have an adapter for the mini, but no one has tried it yet..... Still tempted but the sintering oven was $20k!!!!!! Been told you can get one for less but too busy to ask around at the moment. Let me know if you do John.
 
Orthodox

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We do not have the disc changer on the 450. We will be getting the 350i Plus, beta version in the fall. This will have a 12 disc changer. I'm expecting it to work well as Imes has done this before.
We distribute Imes. There have been Imes mills requiring additional service after training and installation. We have supported all of these mills as need, often sending a field tech out. In addition, when problems have come up we mill in our milling center at cost for customers with mills that need service.

hello Bob, the 350i plus is from Imes or???
 

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