"How much quicker with two Scanners ?" (I did a test)

[CoolHandLuke]

from my perspective there is only two things lacking in the IOS world before people should make the leap to buying and using it in a model free way.

1. cross arch distortion; for this we need to move away from photogrammetry (stitching pictures) method. if photogrammetry method MUST remain there are several ways to combat this distortion, but that's a topic for another time.

2. reliable and quick method to record rest. if you can record rest you can work on full edentulous. since no method exists yet (hehehe) don't bother.

but for singles, small cases, or implant bridges spanning less than 50mm yeah its feasible to do ios and in most of that case work, even model free. just be aware of your dr's temping method, and their knowledge of occlusion.

the last piece of the puzzle is getting it consistent from the mil or printer. no small feat. lots of qualitative testing happens. its not press the button and it works perfectly. that takes time to develop you cant buy that from imes or roland.

 

[rlhhds]

A thing about going model-less concerns me. All of our IOS cases get a model printed just to check the contacts it give us a feel good thing when we send cases out. I don't know about the rest of you but all the tweeking and tuning we have been with our parameters and designs we still have to do some adjusting to our crowns. Regardless if it is an IOS case or traditional I can not get a crown to drop on the model without touching it. Maybe some of you can more power to you and I want your secret sauce for that. My clients rave about our no touch crowns. If I go model-less there goes my no touch crowns. Then there goes part of our advantage over my competition. Sorry for the off topic rant.

 

[Getoothachopper]

this might seem silly, but am i the only person that scans a case while designing one at the same time?i understand the redundancy of having the second scanner and completely agree there...but beyond that the time savings is minimal. most single unit cases take about as long to design as they do to scan (at least with my old d700) so adding another scanner is overkill for that reason.

That is an awesome idea , I had never even thought of doing that but it 'is' the exact same time to scan as to design.

 

[Affinity]

CHL are you saying that there is no way to record a centric bite for a full arch case? Maybe I dont understand what youre saying but that seems pretty simple and while they are biased I would say many of the leading IOS Drs dont consider that a problem.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

for dentate patients theres good ways, reliable ways to get CR. people have designed entire courses on systems built to do just that.

there is no way to digitally record Rest for Edentulous patients. you have to go analog with muck and guck of getting all up in the mouth with impression materials, bite blocks as "close enough" and cut the sh1t out of the wax blocks and get close. ask two denture makers to record one bite twice, identically. never gonna happen. in denture manufacturing you then have "bite whisperers" practitioners who have a knack for it from years of eyeballing it, who cannot adapt to digital because they just can't learn new tricks.

thats my only point. for dentate patients, no problem. follow whichever course you want, most of them get there in the end.

but ios is not good enough for creating a denture, nor good enough for converting a denture into an all-on-x, or doing any kind of workflow for bar manufacturing.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

from my perspective there is only two things lacking in the IOS world before people should make the leap to buying and using it in a model free way.

1. cross arch distortion; for this we need to move away from photogrammetry (stitching pictures) method. if photogrammetry method MUST remain there are several ways to combat this distortion, but that's a topic for another time.

2. reliable and quick method to record rest. if you can record rest you can work on full edentulous. since no method exists yet (hehehe) don't bother.

but for singles, small cases, or implant bridges spanning less than 50mm yeah its feasible to do ios and in most of that case work, even model free. just be aware of your dr's temping method, and their knowledge of occlusion.

the last piece of the puzzle is getting it consistent from the mil or printer. no small feat. lots of qualitative testing happens. its not press the button and it works perfectly. that takes time to develop you cant buy that from imes or roland.

does this all weigh the difference in raw data between all ios? what i see from omnicam is different from trudef, and carestream, and planmeca. doesnt matter what i import into, each have their own quirks....hence having the concern with a head first dive into model free workflow. its coming, i just dont know when...
as far as consistent results from the roland....it may not be super accurate to the levels you are examining, but the results i get are very consistent here (from my scanned models that is). once we jump to ios, the results are less predictable depending upon the data.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

That is an awesome idea , I had never even thought of doing that but it 'is' the exact same time to scan as to design.

pretty much, yep.
i input the first case, and while its scanning i input the next. as i move on to design i send the second to scan and only pause my designs when the scan is complete. usually im done designing and scanning within 1min of each other.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

does this all weigh the difference in raw data between all ios? what i see from omnicam is different from trudef, and carestream, and planmeca. doesnt matter what i import into, each have their own quirks....hence having the concern with a head first dive into model free workflow. its coming, i just dont know when...
as far as consistent results from the roland....it may not be super accurate to the levels you are examining, but the results i get are very consistent here (from my scanned models that is). once we jump to ios, the results are less predictable depending upon the data.

each of the scanners you mentioned uses the same kind of technique to capture data, the camera takes a photo every millisecond or so, and depending on your movements will align the photos together and create a 3d model.this is not new, novel, or unique to dental. this is really old tech just making its way into dental. it is barely better than laser tech.

each of the systems listed also uses their own stitching "method" where it determines the alignment, which photos to keep, what amount of data to parse, and the density of the final pointcloud. this means every system creates yes an open format 3d file, an STL file, but no two systems create the same standardized pointcloud.

in order to eliminate distortion the worst thing you can do is throw more data at it. these methods used in each system account for data that shows errors and discards them - so adding a sort of "big picture" to the small pictures all stitched together, would just get discarded and never tell you, and youd still never know if your scan was off. controlling this distortion is a difficult task with existing technology.

 

[JMN]

This is the main problem with all current production IO scanning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_effect

This is why a dentate case scan can be close enough, there are hard surfaces to record and merge.

Edentulous oral environments are entirely soft tissue and can change even with heartbeat at the detail level we ask of them.

Not to mention *any* movement on the part of the patient. Some try to overcome this using markers to draw on the gingiva, it helps, but tissue is still mobile, and has differing elasticity, compressability, personally differing muscle connections, etc, etc. Ad infinitum ad nausem...

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

each of the scanners you mentioned uses the same kind of technique to capture data, the camera takes a photo every millisecond or so, and depending on your movements will align the photos together and create a 3d model.this is not new, novel, or unique to dental. this is really old tech just making its way into dental. it is barely better than laser tech.

each of the systems listed also uses their own stitching "method" where it determines the alignment, which photos to keep, what amount of data to parse, and the density of the final pointcloud. this means every system creates yes an open format 3d file, an STL file, but no two systems create the same standardized pointcloud.

in order to eliminate distortion the worst thing you can do is throw more data at it. these methods used in each system account for data that shows errors and discards them - so adding a sort of "big picture" to the small pictures all stitched together, would just get discarded and never tell you, and youd still never know if your scan was off. controlling this distortion is a difficult task with existing technology.

ok, i agree with all this...and go back to my original point of what is inconsistent for me!!! lol

 

[Joonie Chae]

Fingers crossed for you . When mine went down under warranty , it ended up being over four months until I got it back from Medit . Even the loaner they sent out to me ,they never were able to get that working . Mine had to be shipped back to Korea .
Obviously in my situation where I scan batches of ten boxes at a time . Two scanners is overkill , but if they are both sitting there I might as well use them both . I honestly find it no more difficult . Bigger labs like you would save so much time . It always frustrated me waiting for the scan to complete , now I just turn to the other machine . I was just trying to be helpful and share what iv'e found with some other labs .People just don't like this idea , lol, i've learned my lesson .

Hello [Name Redacted],

I want to apologize for the negative experience you had with our product and services. Our hope is to earn your trust back and make sure this type of situation never occurs again. We have established a concrete repair center and have hired new management and staff to support our end users throughout the country. I would like to discuss how we can help you and will send an email today. Talk to you soon [Name Redacted] and hope you have a great weekend.


Thank you,

Joonie Chae

{Mod edit to remove real name, if the user wishes it public that is entirely their call.}

 

[sndmn2]

When I bought my scanner it went out in 6 months..I bought from Ivoclar for the sole reason that I am 30 minutes from the Troy MI location..went over and grabbed a loaner the same day. Core3d asdures me of the same service. Time will tell.