Fully Informed Dentists and Patients

[rshark]

Works that way in South Africa, and some countries in Europe. What about choice though? If a patient is given the choice of say paying a $500 per crown fee for my crown or $170 for the Chinese cheapy, which do you think they are going to choose. Oops just realised we are going off topic here. Or maybe not? If our aggrieved VTDave was given a choice of which lab the case was sent to, then he would have the opportunity of asking the lab what his crown was made of. If the lab can then charge the Patient directly, and charge according to the amount of superfluous questions they have to answer, then case could be billed according to the BS factor.

Dentists here hate the idea of separate bills because then they can't hide the real fee they charge. I've seen it so many times, the patient comes in to see me for a shade and somehow thinks that I'm getting a huge fee for my work out of the dentist bill for say $1800. Occasionally the patient will cajole me into telling him/or her what my fee actually is and most time they are outraged at what the dentist is making for what is, at most 1 - 11/2 hour s work. Perhaps separate bills would engender more transparency in practice.

 

[Tom Moore]

If the patient doesn't get the price choice then they don't have a real choice. Its more paperwork for everyone involved and in the end more cost to the patient.

Dentists that can not look a patient in the eye and explain why they charge what they charge are being overprotected. Most can. The lab device is part of the treatment not the treatment.

 

[Hary]

About the subject that labs are obliged to talk to patient, that is out of question, because our prescription is our legal ticket out of the problems like this if we folow what is riten in the prescription and deliver the work as prescribed we have no wories. by any chance if the prescribed work is ilogical or problematic i pic up the phone and talk to my dentist and not the "PATIENT".

 

[Randy Hill PhD]

I honestly can't believe I read through all the posts associated with this thread. It's been my experience that any patient like VTDave that came into the dental office with all these concerns/issues disclosed in full, would have immediately been referred by that dentist to another dentist (and maybe to one he didn't like).

I agree with all those that posted that this is essentially up to the patient to disclose all known "sensitivities" to the Dr. Any intake form asks that question.

The Dr. did the right thing.......... he replaced them for free. I know many dentists that wouldn't have done that!
The labs did the right thing..........don't talk to the patient. That's an opportunity to open mouth and insert foot! Is the patient my customer??? In my opinion, no. The dentist is. I cannot interpret anything on that prescription. I have to follow it. I CAN make suggestions, but if any change is to occur, I get another lab slip to cover my butt. If the patient was my customer, his/her name would be on the check that pays my bill. Until that happens, I know who my customer is. If I fail in any respect on any case, it is up to the dentist to notify me, and for me to make it right.
Example: There is a heck of a lot of difference between what is acceptable when I send the dentist an Emax crown, and when he mills it with his Cerec. The difference in marginal integrity ............... well, let's hold that for another thread.

My point is this.................. our business is NOT going to grow by being on the phone all day with patients with sensitivities. Nor will it grow holding hands with dentists who haven't the CE credits to know what the product they prescribe is all about! Our businesses will grow when we treat them as businesses and not servants, hobby shops, or the like. It's up to us to grow our business and no one else.
I'd love to see the time where patients paid us directly. I'm confident we'd get paid more then. I just made a crown for myself, and the dentist billed my insurance for a PFM/high noble metal, where the script said use noble metal. Hell, if that's not fraud what is? And this goes on thousands of times per day all over the country! Again, another thread.

VTDave, take your dentist to court if you're not satisfied, we have this forum here to help the techs who use it for information to help us, and your argument is firmly with your dentist. I doubt seriously if he ever wants to work on you again. In this case more than likely, the lab that made crowns for this case had to "eat" the cost of the first crowns, and make the new ones for free if he wanted to keep the account. That's what we deal with on a daily basis, along with due dates, employees, and etc. to ad nauseum.
I, like others, wouldn't discuss the case with you, and I would be in a precarious position with the client, the dentist, if I did. Concepts and facts get lost in the translation.

 

[VTDave]

About the subject that labs are obliged to talk to patient, that is out of question, because our prescription is our legal ticket out of the problems like this if we folow what is riten in the prescription and deliver the work as prescribed we have no wories. by any chance if the prescribed work is ilogical or problematic i pic up the phone and talk to my dentist and not the "PATIENT".

My pharmacist fills prescriptions from my doctor and he is willing to talk to me about the medications. Is that a valid analogy?

 

[AJEL]

My pharmacist fills prescriptions from my doctor and he is willing to talk to me about the medications. Is that a valid analogy?

No your pharmacist is selling directly to you, and has had training to deal with public like yourself. The pharmacist also has a license to deal with the public, my business license is to deal with dentists as provided in my state by the IL Dental Practice Act Sec 5b. The state of the industry today is that there are very few schools for dental lab technicians to train at (currently none in IL). I am not aware of today's courses (in the current 12 accredited schools) but back in the 70's we had no classes on patient management. But then I am only an organic chemist & dental lab technician.

 

[Tom Moore]

My pharmacist fills prescriptions from my doctor and he is willing to talk to me about the medications. Is that a valid analogy?

NO

 

[VTDave]

I'd love to see the time where patients paid us directly. I'm confident we'd get paid more then. I just made a crown for myself, and the dentist billed my insurance for a PFM/high noble metal, where the script said use noble metal. Hell, if that's not fraud what is? And this goes on thousands of times per day all over the country! Again, another thread.

Why should that be another thread? This is what happened to me - only it wasn't a bait and switch with high noble to noble. It was a switch from captek/Inline to zircon/cerebien. I would love to pay labs directly also. That would be a much better system.

 

[Randy Hill PhD]

Dave, If you had gone into the dentist's office and said: " If I need any indirect restorations made, I will only accept Captek/Inline"
If he didn't do this, I wouldn't have let him/her cement them in. Plain and simple. Anything less, and you are complicent with his treatment plain. If you knew you had "sensitivities", you should have made them known. Plain and simple.
Should the lab talk to you? No, plain and simple. Refer to my previous post of opening mouth and inserting foot. Plain and simple.

In conclusion, hopefully, of this thread, if you want to stir up more ch&t, go to DentalTown.com. I hear it's real pleasant over there.

I wish you all the best in your endeavors to right the wrongs of the world related to the dentist/technician saga, for when you do, please return and let us all know. Most of us old timers are still trying to figure it out.

 

[Randy Hill PhD]

HI 5 Ajel................. I was a chemistry major myself.

 

[AJEL]

HI 5 Ajel................. I was a chemistry major myself.

I remember a PM thread about July11. you seemed in the doldrums. PM

 

[VTDave]

Dave, If you had gone into the dentist's office and said: " If I need any indirect restorations made, I will only accept Captek/Inline"

I did.

If he didn't do this, I wouldn't have let him/her cement them in. Plain and simple. Anything less, and you are complicent with his treatment plain. If you knew you had "sensitivities", you should have made them known. Plain and simple.

I did let him know. He lied. plain and simple. I didn't think he would lie so I let him cement them in. Guess I should have asked him to submit to a polygraph before giving him any money, eh? I found out. He returned my money.

Should the lab talk to you? No, plain and simple. Refer to my previous post of opening mouth and inserting foot. Plain and simple.

This kind of thing seems to indicate that you guys don't know what you are doing.

 

[Brett Hansen CDT]

Dave, do you have a job, family, hobby, etc...? I would suggest spending more of your time on those endeavors than spending your time on our forums reiterating the same post. We get it, you have sensitivities and the doctor lied to you. Sue him. The way this is set up, we aren't responsible and we CAN'T communicate with you about treatment planning....PERIOD. I have an idea, I think you should take the time you have spent here and spend it on Wikipedia....there are lots of entries to edit and you can spend all day there researching topics and posting away.

 

[Brett Hansen CDT]

Ajel and Randy, I am a Chem major too. I have found it pretty useful in our line of work.

 

[VTDave]

Works that way in South Africa, and some countries in Europe. What about choice though? If a patient is given the choice of say paying a $500 per crown fee for my crown or $170 for the Chinese cheapy, which do you think they are going to choose. Oops just realised we are going off topic here. Or maybe not? If our aggrieved VTDave was given a choice of which lab the case was sent to, then he would have the opportunity of asking the lab what his crown was made of. If the lab can then charge the Patient directly, and charge according to the amount of superfluous questions they have to answer, then case could be billed according to the BS factor.

Dentists here hate the idea of separate bills because then they can't hide the real fee they charge. I've seen it so many times, the patient comes in to see me for a shade and somehow thinks that I'm getting a huge fee for my work out of the dentist bill for say $1800. Occasionally the patient will cajole me into telling him/or her what my fee actually is and most time they are outraged at what the dentist is making for what is, at most 1 - 11/2 hour s work. Perhaps separate bills would engender more transparency in practice.

I would be willing to pay more to be able to know what is being made for me. I think many people would. But should people have to? Food ingredients have to be listed. People with peanut allergies could die.

 

[VTDave]

Dave, do you have a job, family, hobby, etc...? I would suggest spending more of your time on those endeavors than spending your time on our forums reiterating the same post. We get it, you have sensitivities and the doctor lied to you. Sue him. The way this is set up, we aren't responsible and we CAN'T communicate with you about treatment planning....PERIOD. I have an idea, I think you should take the time you have spent here and spend it on Wikipedia....there are lots of entries to edit and you can spend all day there researching topics and posting away.

Some people get it. Many don't. Maybe when more people get sick from materials that doctors and dentists put into them there will be some change in the laws. maybe one of YOU guys or your family members could get sick from a hip replacment. Those new all metal hips are making many people sick.

 

[Brett Hansen CDT]

Dave! I think you just hit on one of those new endeavors I was talking about it. You need to Google up the Hip Replacement Technician Network and start a thread there!

One more time...you are talking to the wrong folks. You need to talk to the ADA or you need to contact your Congressman, which I am sure you have probably already done.

 

[VTDave]

The point is that this is part of a larger issue that could effect you and your family someday. You may not care about it now but it may become important for you. And it is not so easy to get traction in these issues. Corporations often get away with making unsafe products for decades before action is taken. Lead pipes. Lead in gasoline. Mercury thermometers. Drugs like Redux, Duract, and Rezulin. Firestone tires. The Ford Pinto.

 

[JMN]

Are you saying I don't have to shake people's hands anymore? Thanks CPD,
....anyone want to buy an unopened case of Purell?....

This post aged too well. Couldn't keep the mirth of this to myself so here;s a loquatious bump.

 

[rkm rdt]

Are you saying I don't have to shake people's hands anymore? Thanks CPD,
....anyone want to buy an unopened case of Purell?....

Holy chit, never mind. .