Need help and guide, open discussion for everyone. Topic: My grey and ugly color zirconia

K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
So, hello everyone. I am a very new player in the world of CAD / CAM Zirconia. A supplier sell me a system consisting of Bruxzir HT block, Burxzir dipping liquid, and Tanaka ZirColor

I have been playing with them for around one month, almost 70 units of crowns of trial and error, but still get no good result.

If you dont mind, i will tell you how I do my zirconia, and please correct me and tell me where I do wrong. I am very open to all you guys are telling me. And i promise to tell you the result from all your seuggestion.

So, I was instructed (by the supplier) to dip the milled green-state zirconia into the Bruxzir liquid for 5 minutes (although the instructions said it should be 15 minutes, but i dont dare to try coz 5 minutes dipping already give me a very dark color),and then dry it with tissue / napkins, then i put it into a dish dryer (only heat, no vapor),for one hour. and then take it out, stain it with Tanaka ZirColor. and go to sintering directly.

The result, sometimes very gray, sometimes very light,and very hard to match with the shade guide.

I hope someone here could give me some guide. Thank you :)
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
5,179
Reaction score
649
run away from bruxzir
there are sooooo many better options nowadays that you really should find a better updated product. it will make your life easier.

fyi dipping with dental direkt (cubex2) liquids require 15-45 SECONDS. not 5-15mins. that being said, i dont use bruxzir so i dont have any solid info for you.
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

Idiot
Full Member
Messages
9,579
Solutions
1
Reaction score
1,411
instructions number 1: dont be pedantic about following instructions.

instructions number 2: don't use bruxzir. theres an off chance that you arent using white, but already shaded pucks, which would explain the darkness but not the grey problem.

3. tissues can contain moisturizer lotion. if you absolutely must use tissue to dry your unit before sinter, use 100% recycled paper towel. guaranteed the cheapest, most garbage tissue for everything else, but great as disposable wipes.

4. post your sintering times and temperatures.

5. tanaka should be applied like nail polish. single stroke, no more.
 
K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
run away from bruxzir
there are sooooo many better options nowadays that you really should find a better updated product. it will make your life easier.

fyi dipping with dental direkt (cubex2) liquids require 15-45 SECONDS. not 5-15mins. that being said, i dont use bruxzir so i dont have any solid info for you.

thank you for your suggestion. So people are already leaving bruxzir for other better option. What is your favorite puck?

instructions number 1: dont be pedantic about following instructions.

instructions number 2: don't use bruxzir. theres an off chance that you arent using white, but already shaded pucks, which would explain the darkness but not the grey problem.

3. tissues can contain moisturizer lotion. if you absolutely must use tissue to dry your unit before sinter, use 100% recycled paper towel. guaranteed the cheapest, most garbage tissue for everything else, but great as disposable wipes.

4. post your sintering times and temperatures.

5. tanaka should be applied like nail polish. single stroke, no more.

thank you Master @CoolHandLuke for replying. hmm. i should recheck with the supplier. The box is Bruxzir HT, which it is supposed to be white . But i will check it again :) my sintering cycle are like this: 25oC for 78 minutes, 1200oC for 60minutes, hold on 1200oC for 50minutes, then rise up again to 1300oC in 28 minutes, go up to 1530oC in 150minutes, hold in 1530oC for 90 minutes, then cooling down. :)

what is your favorite pucks, master CoolHandLuke?
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

Idiot
Full Member
Messages
9,579
Solutions
1
Reaction score
1,411
what an odd program.

if you can, make a secondary program for testing. bare with me, i havent written a sintering program in a long time, but from memory this is what i recall.

200C for 30 mins, rise 3C/min to 1300C hold for 60 min ramp 2C/min to 1500 hold for 30. slow cool. slow as possible. if this program gets to 1500C at 23:00 (11pm) then ensure cooling takes until 06:00 (6am) to get to room temp.

try it a few times.

most zirconia ends up sintering at 800c anyway, the high temp is to help translucency. slow cooling ensures no cracks. but sintering program alone might not be enough to overcome your problems.

i like many brands. most of them can work well with a careful staining procedure. the best results (usually, not always) come as a kit. for example Cubex2 pucks and Cubex2 stains. once you get the hang of it and adjust your procedure, it can work well. likewise Jensen XT.
Nexxzr. ZirkonZahn. bundles of stain and pucks.

it can also be preferable to use sintering beads in your crucible.

Bruxzir was designed for one purpose. to be cheap. thats all. is that something you want to stick your name to?
 
K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
what an odd program.

if you can, make a secondary program for testing. bare with me, i havent written a sintering program in a long time, but from memory this is what i recall.

200C for 30 mins, rise 3C/min to 1300C hold for 60 min ramp 2C/min to 1500 hold for 30. slow cool. slow as possible. if this program gets to 1500C at 23:00 (11pm) then ensure cooling takes until 06:00 (6am) to get to room temp.

try it a few times.

most zirconia ends up sintering at 800c anyway, the high temp is to help translucency. slow cooling ensures no cracks. but sintering program alone might not be enough to overcome your problems.

i like many brands. most of them can work well with a careful staining procedure. the best results (usually, not always) come as a kit. for example Cubex2 pucks and Cubex2 stains. once you get the hang of it and adjust your procedure, it can work well. likewise Jensen XT.
Nexxzr. ZirkonZahn. bundles of stain and pucks.

it can also be preferable to use sintering beads in your crucible.

Bruxzir was designed for one purpose. to be cheap. thats all. is that something you want to stick your name to?

okay, i will make some trial with your suggestion sintering program. I really wish i can try the jensen XT one, but no one can help me. I tried to contact them throught facebook, email, but no reply :D anyway, do you still do layering onto your zirconia, master @CoolHandLuke?

and of course, i want best to stick with my name, not cheap :D i will keep learning. your guidance will be valuable for me
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

Idiot
Full Member
Messages
9,579
Solutions
1
Reaction score
1,411
layering is a philosophical excersize i can't be bothered with.

if you like porcelain, do porcelain. but don't buy Cubex or XT and layer to it. theres nothing wrong with it, but it was made for full contour. layering it just produces a vastly weaker and far more expensive end result that takes time out of your process and in my opinion adds a practically miniscule 'better' end result. i use that term loosely becuase 'better' is a subjective term.

i see no reason to layer.
 
K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
layering is a philosophical excersize i can't be bothered with.

if you like porcelain, do porcelain. but don't buy Cubex or XT and layer to it. theres nothing wrong with it, but it was made for full contour. layering it just produces a vastly weaker and far more expensive end result that takes time out of your process and in my opinion adds a practically miniscule 'better' end result. i use that term loosely becuase 'better' is a subjective term.

i see no reason to layer.

Me too. I believe that nowadays, with great technique, material, and experience, one can make a good monolithic zirconia. I complain to my supplier for the grayish result, and he told me that if we want to achieve esthetic, we need layering. and i thought, he still have not seen the outside world. Master @CoolHandLuke, can I private message you for some further conversation?
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
5,179
Reaction score
649
thank you for your suggestion. So people are already leaving bruxzir for other better option. What is your favorite puck?
im still fairly new to the milling/coloring/sintering scene....but its been nearly a year and i have toyed around with a handful. right now i am enjoying the precolored Amann Girrbach Zolid FX MultiLayer pucks. they are beautiful.
i have been playing some with the Jensen XT and Imagine. both good products, i am still getting them dialed in. also spent a good deal of time with the cubeX2 material, very nice but i struggled with some chroma issues and got away from it for that reason.
and my main line for 95% of my zirconia has been Whip Mix Vericore HT and HTX colored with the Dental Direkt (cubeX2) liquids. absolutely beautiful restorations, and you can search my recent post history for pics if you want some examples.
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
5,179
Reaction score
649
also @Kelvin Tantono CHL is on to something with the sintering. i dont know anything about bruxzir but that sinter program seems screwy to me too.
having the proper sintering parameters will greatly increase your odds of getting great repeatable results.
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

Idiot
Full Member
Messages
9,579
Solutions
1
Reaction score
1,411
im still fairly new to the milling/coloring/sintering scene....but its been nearly a year and i have toyed around with a handful. right now i am enjoying the precolored Amann Girrbach Zolid FX MultiLayer pucks. they are beautiful.
i have been playing some with the Jensen XT and Imagine. both good products, i am still getting them dialed in. also spent a good deal of time with the cubeX2 material, very nice but i struggled with some chroma issues and got away from it for that reason.
and my main line for 95% of my zirconia has been Whip Mix Vericore HT and HTX colored with the Dental Direkt (cubeX2) liquids. absolutely beautiful restorations, and you can search my recent post history for pics if you want some examples.
the more i see of these cubic/tetrahedral hybrid zirconia the more hope i have that zirconia is becoming bulletproof
 
sidesh0wb0b

sidesh0wb0b

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
5,179
Reaction score
649
the more i see of these cubic/tetrahedral hybrid zirconia the more hope i have that zirconia is becoming bulletproof
can only get better from here! truly amazed at the leaps we are going through in tech the last 5-10 years
 
eyeloveteeth

eyeloveteeth

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
2,170
Reaction score
275
just don't use bruxzir and yes, that sinter program looks wonky.
 
K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
im still fairly new to the milling/coloring/sintering scene....but its been nearly a year and i have toyed around with a handful. right now i am enjoying the precolored Amann Girrbach Zolid FX MultiLayer pucks. they are beautiful.
i have been playing some with the Jensen XT and Imagine. both good products, i am still getting them dialed in. also spent a good deal of time with the cubeX2 material, very nice but i struggled with some chroma issues and got away from it for that reason.
and my main line for 95% of my zirconia has been Whip Mix Vericore HT and HTX colored with the Dental Direkt (cubeX2) liquids. absolutely beautiful restorations, and you can search my recent post history for pics if you want some examples.
great suggestion. will try to order them, although it will be hard to get them here to my place, Indonesia :DD but i will try, thanks man.

also @Kelvin Tantono CHL is on to something with the sintering. i dont know anything about bruxzir but that sinter program seems screwy to me too.
having the proper sintering parameters will greatly increase your odds of getting great repeatable results.
hmm. i started to wonder whether my supplier really understand what he is selling or not

the more i see of these cubic/tetrahedral hybrid zirconia the more hope i have that zirconia is becoming bulletproof
yeay! anyway, how to know the different between regular zirconia, and the cubic zirconia?

can only get better from here! truly amazed at the leaps we are going through in tech the last 5-10 years

just don't use bruxzir and yes, that sinter program looks wonky.
okay, will not use them again for sure :DD
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

Idiot
Full Member
Messages
9,579
Solutions
1
Reaction score
1,411
well, its molecular composition is labelled on its packaging.

you'll see markings like 5Y-TZP which indicate how much Yttria is used, and that it is Tetragonal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yttria-stabilized_zirconia

Ceubex2 is a 50% cubic-Tetragonal hybrid, Nexxzr is a fully Tetragonal. this is why Nexxzr can advertize as full strength zirconia, and not weak like emax.
 
K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
well, its molecular composition is labelled on its packaging.

you'll see markings like 5Y-TZP which indicate how much Yttria is used, and that it is Tetragonal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yttria-stabilized_zirconia

Ceubex2 is a 50% cubic-Tetragonal hybrid, Nexxzr is a fully Tetragonal. this is why Nexxzr can advertize as full strength zirconia, and not weak like emax.

aha i got it, this is new insight.

tonight i will do sintering with your suggested program. tomorrow will use the regular one. monday i will post the different :) lets see
 
K

Kelvin Tantono

Member
Full Member
Messages
41
Reaction score
7
well, first attempt failed, everyone :D my sintering program was wrong, and takes 34 hours LOL. will fix it and do another sintering tonight
 

Similar threads

TheLabGuy
Replies
107
Views
14K
rkm rdt
rkm rdt
Top Bottom