Jumping into Digital Age

[sndmn2]

I'm doing roughly 20 / 25 units a month that require milling. Currently I wax up and then take them to the lab for processing and then pick them back up. I'm headed to Chicago next month to look at scanners. My knowledge on scanning and all the terms is limited to what I can piece together on this forum. Can someone point me to a publication that explains { in layman's term } things I need to know before I even look? Thanks

 

[CoolHandLuke]

it would be easier to describe to you what terms you will see and what may confuse you.

Accuracy. scanner accuracy is different from software accuracy for 3d design and different from 3d print. scanning accuracy is a measure of how small of a feature can be correctly represented with triangles. typical accuracy for scanners is 15-40 microns (um)

STL output. this has everything to do with what kind of file the scanner software creates. Closed systems often create proprietary file types, but Open systems create STL data which is easily reused between many different design and manufacturing software.

modules. most scanning and design tools have the option to "add" some features to your software at extra cost; for example to create implants or partial dentures. you'll need to pay extra in the form of an additional software patch.

annual cost. some companies provide service for life, so long as you continue to use them, but to do so means paying an annual fee. there are companies that don't require this kind of fee, but this does play a part in how you finance and in what capacity you will profit.

Light types. there are some very different technologies out there for capturing image data. white light, blue light, and laser, are the most popular. how they differ is a topic for another day but just be prepared to see that image acquisition is very different.

scan times; ok this is a big misleading number. ignore what EVERYONE has to say on the subject. it is moot. the time it takes to scan a die has no bearing on the time spent cleaning up the scan, rescanning, creating blockouts, mapping scan flags, or scanning in articulation.

scan bodies; these things are what you screw onto a model for placing a 3d model of an implant analog in a scanned model, to design an abutment. these can come from many places but remember if your scanner is closed or open, because that will make a difference who you will be allowed to buy scan bodies from.

scanning in articulation; some scanners allow you to set a whole articulator inside, to place the antagonist and die model together. some do not. priced accordingly.

just how new to this are you ?

 

[user name]

Thats why youre a Hall of Famer Luke.

 

[Andrew Priddy]

Thats why youre a Hell of Farmer Luke.

yep

 

[Andrew Priddy]

if it were me... i'd probable look at the pricing and tech support of some of the companies like CAP and Argen....
scanner and software shopping is great! but I would start with my every day future cost and work backwards...
am I going to mill my own zirconia, e.max, or send out the files..... and what are the costs?
am I just doing digital scans, design and mill in house?
am I doing mostly implants?
what you are going to use it for plays a big role....
is the system capable of expanding to meet my needs? if so, how much $

tech support is invaluable

will they train you on the system?
will they offer free remakes?

 

[sndmn2]

[QUOTE just how new to this are you ?[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the replies.
Started building and grinding porcelain back in "78". Worked in labs for 18 years. By myself the last 18.. I never had allot of call for the full Zirc crowns until about a year ago. But between the Emax and full contours for Zirc. waxing is taking quite a bite out of my time. What I don't have time for I outsource to have waxed.My understanding is it takes about 10 or 15 minutes to scan for a full crown once you learn how. Is that about right ? I have no real world , on hands scanning experience at this time. AxSys is only about 5 miles from me so Medit is a real strong possibility . I've had conversations with Chris Brown on several occasions when he was with Apex and he was always willing to discuss things with me.

I do not plan to do any milling now or in the future. Just scan and design. I would like to be able to do implants. I would also like to be able to accept IOS files. If I'm not mistaken milled crowns from a file cost around $45.

Thank's

 

[rkm rdt]

That's what I do.

You need to find a milling center that will give you good support. Stick with the big boys for now.

Cap , Argen,Core 3d would be a good start.

They have been my mentors.

 

[cadfan]

5 - 10 minutes scan no mater how many stumps everything full articulated deepened on scanner ready to cad

 

[sndmn2]

...scanner ready to cad ?....

Thanks

 

[Andrew Priddy]

it depends on who you are with as far as cost... we use Argen for implants, zirconia, PMMA, and models...
e.max we send to CMC
some copy milling at Nobel
our pricing is excellent, but we run high volume with several sister labs...
you can negotiate the pricing if you buy everything at one source and negotiate a price at that time.... like I said earlier, saving 3k on a system somewhere doesn't really help much when your overall crown cost is 46.00 vs 36.00, or even 26.00..... 3k gets burned up pretty damn fast.

the other thing... how much production will you loose if you can't get tech support on the phone... and, being "new" to a system is an absolute guarantee that you will be on the phone a lot...
I'm not real "new" to CAD, but on 3Shape for only a few months now. its a real learning curve, get some extensive training wrapped up in "the deal" as well. I spent 2 days at Argen in one-on-one training and came home to my first two cases--- 4 Anterior Ti abutments with 8 copings on the same arch, and a full mouth of PMMA's over stock abutments.
I muddled thru, and both "rush" cases went as right as they could... and that was on ZERO sleep for 3 days

remember, CAD courses aren't cheap... a day of 3Shape training runs about a G... not to mention the cost to get there. you can find many posts on here about people not being happy with who they went to for initial system purchase, and why..

licensing is another factor to consider... the "all scans" module for 3Shape is $6500-7500 w/ 1200 yearly renewal (you would need to have a minimum 20 scans come in a month... but closer to 40) to justify the purchase... so unless you are 100% computer savvy, it can take a week to even comprehend what the software you just purchased can and can't do.
of course you will be "sold" every module.. you "might" go into ortho, so you "might" need it
get your licensing costs nailed down from the start, even if you don't purchase the module at this time
also, how many software upgrades do you get?

your list of questions (hopefully) is growing

 

[Andrew Priddy]

I can have a crown scanned, designed, sent off every 20 min... 35 with an abutment... I am definitely not the fastest
it's clean in the scan room, my ipod is in the scan room.. I have 2 screens in the scan room... it's quiet in the scan room... I have a leather chair in the scan room... no one can see me in the scan room... just need a little pink porta-potty in there and i'd never leave..

so.. not everyone does a variety of abutments... that's another question to research

 

[CoolHandLuke]

i suggest you follow the example of your friend and mine, user_name.

what he did, being much in the same boat, was to invest in a scanner and send the files to various places for work. incidentally, this is the same thing as RKM_RDT did as well.

now, as will all toys, you may thin the first scanner you get will be the best because you did good homework on it.

but as well all have experienced, no thats not usually the case. at first you'll buy a scanner that works for what you want it to. then 5 years or so later youll need to do something wilder. crazier. newer, better. you will need more toys.

and so, because this investment is a short term one, you don't want to look at something too high end. something like a Medit, or D700.

but i will link to you a guide i wrote for just ths kind of occasion.

http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/threads/lukes-guide-to-digitizing-your-lab.16802/

 

[Andrew Priddy]

outsourcing design is a great option... we just started outsourcing model design to avoid buying "all scans"
this could also really free up your waxing time spent... i'm a good waxer, but can have a wax crown printed/ milled much faster, much cheaper... then press when it shows up in a few days

 

[Tom Moore]

First remember that underutilized technology is a big drain on the profits. Outsource until you have the volume to keep a mill running close to capacity. Outsourcing will allow you to market an do more units at the same time to build your volume. That way someone beside the milling system salesperson makes some money.

 

[Saluki]

Regardless of who you decide to go to. Be sure that they are there for you when you have questions and need support. There will be many occasions when you need both. My pick would be CAP. Hands down the best I have dealt with.

 

[user name]

Sndmn2...your story sounds similar to mine. I was intimidated by everyone and everything around me seemingly going digital. I got a scanner. It sat almost unused for nearly two years. I wasnt 'selling' Zr; Ive seen enough FCZ to know I didnt like it; frameworks were fine. I shopped around trying to find a milling center that would send me something I could work with without having to be embarrassed or send an apology with each crown.

Now Im going to brag...

I got a mill and all the other stuff you need. Expensive? kind of, but the write off on taxes is a huge help, AND...instead of paying the expensive price for each unit, my costs are way down. Plus now my FCZ look dang good. Just this last week I had taken some to an office and was asked after seating a few..."did you change something?". "why cant we use these everywhere?" "I have a big anterior bridge on a bruxer. Can we use this stuff?"

For what Ive been paying a milling center each month, I can pay off all my equipment in a year. Hesitation is good if it keeps you from making mistakes, but dont miss the boat. I am so jazzed about what Im doing with this stuff, its all my friends hear about.

I dont know if he would care if I 'out' him a bit, but Cad Bane came over and hung out with me a couple weeks ago and showed me his formulas for hitting shades. Dude knows his stuff. As for tech support...Ive got DLN. Boom!

 

[sndmn2]

Thank you all . Your replies have led me to seek out more answers to questions and situations I had not thought about.

 

[labtek]

Sndmn2...your story sounds similar to mine. I was intimidated by everyone and everything around me seemingly going digital. I got a scanner. It sat almost unused for nearly two years. I wasnt 'selling' Zr; Ive seen enough FCZ to know I didnt like it; frameworks were fine. I shopped around trying to find a milling center that would send me something I could work with without having to be embarrassed or send an apology with each crown.

Now Im going to brag...

I got a mill and all the other stuff you need. Expensive? kind of, but the write off on taxes is a huge help, AND...instead of paying the expensive price for each unit, my costs are way down. Plus now my FCZ look dang good. Just this last week I had taken some to an office and was asked after seating a few..."did you change something?". "why cant we use these everywhere?" "I have a big anterior bridge on a bruxer. Can we use this stuff?"

For what Ive been paying a milling center each month, I can pay off all my equipment in a year. Hesitation is good if it keeps you from making mistakes, but dont miss the boat. I am so jazzed about what Im doing with this stuff, its all my friends hear about.

I dont know if he would care if I 'out' him a bit, but Cad Bane came over and hung out with me a couple weeks ago and showed me his formulas for hitting shades. Dude knows his stuff. As for tech support...Ive got DLN. Boom!

.
Impressive, if you can do it, keep on bragging
who is Cad Bane? and the formulas you are talking about are they in a recipe that can be shared on DLN? i.e. brand of zirconia, brand of coloring liquids, firing time and temps, each shade recipe, etc. etc. If you have a system that can be copied and duplicated then why should everyone have to go through the trial and error. I would prefer to copy a proven system than to have to spend time and money with failures. Now this is one thing that many people can be thankful to the internet for.....learning from others experiences (in real time and not 3 months later in trade journals)

Have you taken the time to write down the recipe/formula for hitting shades?

 

[user name]

.
Impressive, if you can do it, keep on bragging
who is Cad Bane? and the formulas you are talking about are they in a recipe that can be shared on DLN? i.e. brand of zirconia, brand of coloring liquids, firing time and temps, each shade recipe, etc. etc. If you have a system that can be copied and duplicated then why should everyone have to go through the trial and error. I would prefer to copy a proven system than to have to spend time and money with failures. Now this is one thing that many people can be thankful to the internet for.....learning from others experiences (in real time and not 3 months later in trade journals)

Have you taken the time to write down the recipe/formula for hitting shades?

Cad Bane is one of the members on here. Why should everyone have to go through trial and error? They dont. Contact Mr. Bane...It cost me 2k to have him come over and share his formulas. It wouldnt be fair for me to give away his intellectual property with out his permission.

 

[labtek]

Cad Bane is one of the members on here. Why should everyone have to go through trial and error? They dont. Contact Mr. Bane...It cost me 2k to have him come over and share his formulas. It wouldnt be fair for me to give away his intellectual property with out his permission.

I agree, not trying to ask anyone to give away what they paid for. I must have misread your post about cadbane coming to hang out with you. I didnt realize you paid him.
If someone has a formula to accurately duplicate shades then by all means it would be priceless$$$ as One of the biggest complaints that i have read on DLN is the inability to get consistent shades with full zirconia.