CAD-SCAM, help me understand

[user name]

When I decided, or better yet, the industry decided, that I need to get into CAD, I did it not thinking its going to be a money maker but just another tool in my shop. If I were building custom motorcycles Id want every tool in my shop. Even the expensive ones that dont have a 'food on the table' ROI. It lets me do 'my' work instead of having to bring in specialists. It would be nice if my technology was a robot that learned quick, didnt get sick and just made me money. Its just another tool in my shop.

 

[stt672]

I can see where CAD-CAM can be incredibly efficient. What is disturbing is the quality I have seen.

***,
I would like to send you two dies, one anterior and one posterior to print copings so I can compare what we are putting out. Maybe the problem is entirely on our side.

Jo, can you promise you will post the results you get back? Keep a master die on hand and post the fit on the master die. Maybe have the copings made in metal/ non metal.

 

[Al.]

Im sure Ill be getting a scanner, sooner than later, first I need to figure out how to make it work for me or fit it into my system or fit my system around it.

Really what I am looking for is seeing what hapened with big flat screen TVs.
Top of the line stuff now at Walmart cheap. I bought a 52" flat screen there 2 years ago now they are $500 cheaper than what I paid.

The thought of paying 30 grand+ for a scanner and software and computer, then have a $2000 a month bill with a milling lab uggg!

No way I want technology for technologys sake. I have to save time and make money with it vs what I do now.

Jason, in the spring I hope to stop by and you can show me a thing or two, if youll still have me after UK wipped UT yesterday. Mabey trade some tips.

 

[Jo Chen]

"No way I want technology for technologys sake. I have to save time and make money with it vs what I do now."

Al said it perfectly

 

[NicelyMKV]

Haaaaa!!! You guys just spent your money better this year than us
Just wait till next year. One and done freshmans

 

[user name]

I must be a different breed. I dont feel I have to make money with it. Eventually I will, but when I first spent the money I figured...I love my job. Its fun, and yes its my income, but how much money do we all spend on toys, hobbies and diversions? I spend far more time in the lab than anywhere else because I like doing this sh*t. Buy the toys, learn to use them, and enjoy it. If everything were strictly ROI youre going to have anxiety, heart burn, ulcers, etc.On this same vein...because Im not out pushing my new stuff, i dont get caught in the competitiveness that results in driving prices lower. When LMT had their last (about a year ago) price comparison, FCZ crowns were on par price wise with e.max. That was well above PFMs. Theyve come down alot. I dont play that game. I dont get as much as Im selling e.max, but Im doing them for more than pfms. The Doctors that question the price and wave an add in my face for cheap crowns...I tell them "no hard feelings. Go give them a try". Remember that 'value' thing? Its more than price. Without 'selling', they are doing more and more. Now my toy is starting to pay its way.

 

[rkm rdt]

Al,you don't have to pay 30K for a scanner.There are many piccolo scanners you could get for a song which would give you a better roi than your hand casted nobel abutments.

I can't hire a tech with the knowledge of my 3 shape software for 35K and a few grand each year.

Don't tell me your porcelain to metal margins are more accurate or esthetic than cad zr because they aren't.

I am far more productive than before because while the cads are being cammed I'm doing something else.

It's working for me.

 

[Al.]

Al,you don't have to pay 30K for a scanner.There are many piccolo scanners you could get for a song which would give you a better roi than your hand casted nobel abutments.

I can't hire a tech with the knowledge of my 3 shape software for 35K and a few grand each year.

Don't tell me your porcelain to metal margins are more accurate or esthetic than cad zr because they aren't.

I am far more productive than before because while the cads are being cammed I'm doing something else.

It's working for me.

Didn't you just get your scanner a few months ago?

 

[user name]

Didn't you just get your scanner a few months ago?

Those are canadian months though...the conversion is something like, double it and add 32, aye?

 

[Jo Chen]

"Jo, can you promise you will post the results you get back? Keep a master die on hand and post the fit on the master die. Maybe have the copings made in metal/ non metal."

STT672,
I'll post pictures once it is done.

 

[charles007]

Al, if you would clean out the wax from under your finger nails, you could probably use the keyboard to design some of your crowns.. Transfer your pfms to zirconia coping, and save on shoulder margin powder..
My kerr casting machine may see the bottom of the river soon .. no more pfms to cast.. U want it Al ! heard your a fast waxer..

 

[rkm rdt]

I bought it last May.What's your point?

 

[Al.]

I bought it last May.What's your point?

No point, I just thought I remember reading your posts where you were researching what to buy last year.

How long did it take for you go get over the learning curve?
Looking back 1 year has it worked out as good as expected?
Anything you'd do different?
Thanks

 

[rkm rdt]

No point, I just thought I remember reading your posts where you were researching what to buy last year.

How long did it take for you go get over the learning curve?
Looking back 1 year has it worked out as good as expected?
Anything you'd do different?
Thanks

To be honest Al, it has been more of a roller coaster than a learning curve.

There is always something new to learn and the ability to network with DLN members has been my lifeline.I could never have learned techniques and proceedures this fast without the help of the folks here.
Here is what I've learned so far:

Margins are the biggest issue...as always.

Emax : I agree that pressing is more accurate than milled however there is a margin porcelain that can fix any voids .I still press when I can since I outsource every cad and it still takes less time to wax and press and it is cheaper as long as I have the ingots in stock.Sometimes it's easier to do cad if it is a rare shade or if I am really busy.

Zirconia: The 2 factors that I have found most important is the scan speed which dictates the detail of the margin and the accuracy of the milling center.

temps : These are so much easier in cad by far.The clear pmma material can also be cast so now I can design a full contour frame bridge, try it in, and then cut it back for ceramics .This is a major time saver.

Anything that is milled requires bur compensation so if you are dealing with minimal occlusal clearance that can be an issue.Therefore at this point I am still waxing my copings by hand.
I am looking forward to cad cast from Bego which will allow me to send the file to them and they will print( not mill) the waxup and cast it with their pressure casting machines in different alloys.

My cad designs are a bit sloppy still and I still require a bit of manual finishing but I have still freed up a substantial amount of time that I can spend on my ceramics.

If I were to do it over I would go with a different distributor but other than that I have no regrets.

 

[smile4me]

Our new upgraded scanner along with our old mill has literally saved our business. We hardly ever used our old scanner n mill up until the new scanner came out but since we got it we have been using it on 95% of the cases that come in the door! Our metal guy left about 6 mos ago and opened up his own lab. We really couldn't afford to replace him so we worked around it. We were doing about 95% PFM when we had a metal guy we have since converted most of the Drs to all ceramic products. We are now at about 85% all ceramics with over 50% of the business monolithic! my ceramist is not so happy about that but tough **** we would be out of business if I had to continue to pay $40 for porcelain to get stacked plus additional $30 to $40 for the metal coping that's how much it cost us for a pfm to be hand made from start to finish. Now we scan the cases that require pfms send over to argen for their noble copings which come back 95% finished then goes straight to the ceramist, whatever is on a time crunch and has to get casted asap my husband would then mill out the coping with acrocad n straight from acrocad he invest and cast he doesn't even have to touch up the wax fits perfect! Our doctors would not switch over to our all ceram products if they weren't happy with the fits so my system (inlab) is working for us! Before we used to have so many bridges come back for adjusting etc now all of those bridges have been converted to TZi bridges n I haven't had one come back out of the 4 dozen we have done so far! pretty freakin amazzzing! literally our system has saved our business! I have been able to cut payroll by over 75% no kidding! all the new tricks, products, etc I have learned by just strolling the forums and also joining the inlab study group on fb. It's amazzzing how everyone is willing to help each other out!

 

[RileyS]

smile4me,
So you went from red ineos to blue? And the fits and margins started to work?

 

[smile4me]

yes we had the red and barely used it because it was a pain to use n kinda hard to scan the blue is soooooo easy to use I learned how to scan after watching our rep scan 1 case now I scan everything for my hubby save the files then he goes n designs n mills everything out afterwards what really really helped with the fits also was we switched fro the automatic chuck to manual chuck cost us $500 but it was soooo worth it!!! our Doctors are really really picky also most of them xray before they actually cement to make sure no open margins n contacts are perfect! I know it's working for us because we hardly get any cases that come back to be adjusted , fixed or remade ! (knocking on wood)

 

[RileyS]

Huh, we switched chucks and had entire mill refurbished by sirona and had zero change in fit and margins.
Jo,
I wonder how you got to the point of so much cad/cam equipment and yet never seemed to like it or find great value in it?

 

[Jo Chen]

RileyS,
I can see the benefit if it works, faster and cheaper is good. Just not happy with the quality of printed plastic copings. Like I said, maybe I am too picky. Zirconia is another issue, don't have another choice, it has to be made through CAD.

 

[smile4me]

Huh, we switched chucks and had entire mill refurbished by sirona and had zero change in fit and margins.
Jo,
I wonder how you got to the point of so much cad/cam equipment and yet never seemed to like it or find great value in it?

Riley do you have the blue or red cam?