Arch tracings

[CloudPeakDL]

Does anyone know what a Gothic arch tracing is and how you set teeth using it?
Have a new dentist asking about it.

 

[CYNOSURER]

try this link:

Using Intraoral Gothic Arch Tracing to Balance Full Dentures and Determine Centric Relation and Occlusal Vertical Dimension | Article | Dentistry Today

 

[kcdt]

Great link Tim, the concept is relayed really well. Candi, I use these fairly regularly, they aren't as complicated as they appear. They work on the same concepts as an anterior deprogrammer, the bite is repeatable, which adds predictablility to the treatment.
Feel free to contact me if you want detailed answers.

 

[CloudPeakDL]

Have any info on parts for the plates? Where and how much?

 

[CYNOSURER]

american tooth industries lists it at $103.00 It comes with a DVD.

American Tooth Industries - Justi - Pozzi - Leone - Major - Regal

 

[kcdt]

Go to Leemark and check out the disposable one by Massad. 10 for $80, and you don't have to keep track of parts. Mark up for profit and add them to the baseplate price. Example M/d tracer w metal plates is a $5 surcharge to add to a baseplate. However if the parts are lost or damaged, then the dr is on the hook for $200 set or replacement parts cost. The disposables are $13 surcharge, I send them back with the finished denture so dr can mount and equilibrate intra orally. My Massad drs like them a lot... I love 'em

 

[Brian]

Go to Leemark and check out the disposable one by Massad. 10 for $80, and you don't have to keep track of parts. Mark up for profit and add them to the baseplate price. Example M/d tracer w metal plates is a $5 surcharge to add to a baseplate. However if the parts are lost or damaged, then the dr is on the hook for $200 set or replacement parts cost. The disposables are $13 surcharge, I send them back with the finished denture so dr can mount and equilibrate intra orally. My Massad drs like them a lot... I love 'em

Kenny boy, I like that approach..

 

[kcdt]

I have my moments.... I remember the days using the old swissdent ones, i had one dr that would dimple the striking plate with his handpiece instead of mounting the receiver.

 

[CloudPeakDL]

Thank you all for your input and help. Once again this forum proves it's worth.
Have a great weekend.

 

[Candulor]

Gothic arch tracer

Candulor has a tracer that we sell at lab price for $79.00.
Same design as the Swissedent Ballbearing Bite Tracer. The kit comes with parts enough for two cases. Also comes with an instruction manual, DVD and/or Powerpoint.

Regards,
Ted Smudde

 

[CShof]

When I used to make intraoral tracers at my old lab I would also make what we called a lip rim, don't know if that's its actual name or not. Bascially just the anterior part of the bite rim with the thickness cut in half waxed to a separate base plate. I would use the papillameter measurements to set the incisal of the lip rim at the correct length for the doc to check, then he also used the lip rim to mark a midline.

In other words, I used the tracer to mount the models and the lip rim was my guide for setting teeth. Is this how everyone else does it?

 

[Candulor]

Esthetic Control Base and gothic tracer

Hey CShof,
You are talking about the Swissedent method. The lip rim is called an ECB (Esthetic Control Base) and was developed by Dr. Frush at Swissedent.
Using the Papillameter, Alameter, and Rimformer you are able to create a wax rim with all esthetic guidelines for setting the anterior teeth.
Great method! l for establishing communication between lab tech and the dentists.

I tried to included a PDF showing the procedures for ECB fabrication and gothic arch tracer (Vertical Centric Recorder),but file it is too large, 3.7 mb.
I can email to you, or maybe someone can tell me how to post to the forum?

Regards,
Ted Smudde

 

[labdude]

TYravis is better at this tahn I am, but, can you post a link to where the pdf is located? Then a click on the link gets you there.

 

[Travis]

Are you getting a fatal error or does it say the the file is too large?

Try it again.

 

[Candulor]

ECB & Gothic tracing slide show

I uploaded the slideshow to the Candulor Facebook page.
Below is the link.
Let me know if you can view it.
Ted

Login | Facebook

 

[kcdt]

Hey CShof,
You are talking about the Swissedent method. The lip rim is called an ECB (Esthetic Control Base) and was developed by Dr. Frush at Swissedent.
Using the Papillameter, Alameter, and Rimformer you are able to create a wax rim with all esthetic guidelines for setting the anterior teeth.
Great method! l for establishing communication between lab tech and the dentists.

I tried to included a PDF showing the procedures for ECB fabrication and gothic arch tracer (Vertical Centric Recorder),but file it is too large, 3.7 mb.
I can email to you, or maybe someone can tell me how to post to the forum?

Regards,
Ted Smudde

Massad uses these terms for the same items. Sometimes the ECB is also referred to as Esthetic Blue Print.

 

[CloudPeakDL]

Okay; I bought the kit, watched the DVD.
Question: Do I need a special articulator or can I use a Hanau?
How is setting teeth diffrent?
Any other suggestions or comments to assist in placing in the occlusal rim.

I have one doc on board to try this; suggestions to selling to other docs?
I'm going to purchase the disposable ones for reasons stated above.

 

[kcdt]

Okay; I bought the kit, watched the DVD.
Question: Do I need a special articulator or can I use a Hanau?
How is setting teeth diffrent?
Any other suggestions or comments to assist in placing in the occlusal rim.

I have one doc on board to try this; suggestions to selling to other docs?
I'm going to purchase the disposable ones for reasons stated above.

You can mount on any articulator- facebows are the ones that have to match the articulator. What you have with a gothic arch is VDO. For all intents and purposes the facebow doesn't matter unless you are opening or closing the pin, as it saves having the perform a checkbite.

Setting teeth is no different.

I recommend the Dr use a lip ruler (papilla gauge) and an alameter. Those two measurements will give you anterior ridge to resting (and smiling) lip, and mid cuspid to mid cuspid. I make two bases so I have one dedicated to the rim and the other to the plate; however, I was also taught to incorporate the two, in which case it is made to the measurements and doesn't go posterior of the first bicusid- it is for anterior display and buccal corridor info only and should not interfere with the proper use of the tracing device.
That's it in a nutshell, I hope that's clear.

 

[rmcmanus]

The gothic arch tracing is for placing the patient in certric relations. As Far as I know you still need, at least, a max wax rim for the postion of the max teeth as the gothic arch I am familar with do not provide this. You would need the gothic arch tracing to mount the case - best to use an adustable articulator if the Dr. is going to see it! But you could use any articulator - after the case is mounted the ant max rim is used to get the esthetics, midline etc. Then it business as usual. The gothic arch is nothing to be afraid of and in my experience only to achieve the centric position but I am aware of tracing devices that do attempt to do more - I have just never used them. Does the Dr's gothic arch device have a specific name or is it a generic type tracing device?
I hope this helps.
Richard McManus

In my opinion the tracing is only used on very difficult patients that for one reason or another resist cooperation or manuel manipulation into centric. In my experience it takes more time(for the DR.) because the DR. has to establish the vertical first then the device is made at this vertical. The tracing is made and then the max wax rim is adjusted in the mouth for esthetics. The gothic arch is extra work. I am aware of the europian device sold by Artex that claims to save time and visits but the instructions are impossible to understand and the sales force has no idea how to use the device. The device is $700.00 also making purchase hard to justify.

If there are Artex people out there that can help I would like to hear from them----Thanks-----

Well made removables are beautiful.

 

[CYNOSURER]

Difficult patients? in removables?

I understand that the really great benefit of the Gothic arch tracer is that it wears the patient down. And no matter how many times he tries to go one way or the other the tracings eventually pin done his centric. And for those 'imaginary' difficult patients it gives them a place they can come back to no matter how much they want to be 'all over the place'.