Milling machines(My take on it)

[biodentg]

To those who own Origin closed system, whats the cost per unit; zr coping vs FCZ?

about the same.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Thanks Jason, sorry for thinking you were a "hoax" , I'll post some pictures of a cool case currently under production in your Exocad thread.

Lol! That was actually a big concern I had before agreeing to do the show. I just really like and enjoy Exocad. I do think at the time the identica scanner surpassed it's white light competitors. I am curious about the Italian scanner Scott is using now. I use what works for me. I like easy with the ability to get extremely advanced if need be. That's why I chose Exocad, white light, Sum3D and the Roland. I like to play around and adjust everything but after work is over. So I need something that can produce with as little effort as necessary but the highest quality.

I had the choice between picasoft or sum3d. I chose what worked easiest for me but also had insanely advanced potential. Same with the Roland. 5 axis extremely accurate. Basic workhorse with advanced potential. Exocad as well.

I'm telling you, Exocad, sum3d, white light and Roland. No problems


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[NicelyMKV]

Ooops

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

I'm curious as to how the roland dwx-50 compares to the dentalmill (digital dental/turning solutions machine). In terms of:

1. Reliability (what good is an investment if it's down for maintenance more often than not)
2. Ease of use (faster/simpler blank loading, tool changes, operating software etc)
3. Serviceability (I service 90% of my own equipment)
4. Milling time (time = $)


Does anyone have any experience with both machines?

I am milling Zirconia/Wax blanks, and making my part files with DentMill. I'm not too concerned with initial purchasing costs when compared to much more important variables (at least in my opinion/application) like the ones stated above.

Ayane,

This is a good set of questions. While it does not address your questions specifically, Roland DGA recently posted a video on their website from a company that looked at the Digital Dental Mill and the DWX-50. In the end they chose the DWX-50. Take a look at the video and if it makes sense, you could contact the lab to ask why they purchased the DWX-50 over the Digital Dental Mill. Regarding your questions here is my 2 cents:

1. Reliability (what good is an investment if it's down for maintenance more often than not)
(A) With DWX-50's in production around the world for more than 2 years (1yr in the US) reliability has been proven. If there was a reliability problem DLN DWX users would be the first to talk about it. Look at the posts from DWX users, no one that owns one is having problems with reliability.
2. Ease of use (faster/simpler blank loading, tool changes, operating software etc)
(A) This is one of the areas that DLN users love most about the DWX. Blank changes are quick, tool free and easy. Blanks are clamped evenly from top and bottom so they won't crack. Tool changes are automatic and the machine automatically calibrates tool lengths so users don't need to manually measure and calibrate. Tools are also measured before and after a cutting operation to detect broken tools. The vpanel interface is extremely efficient and user friendly with calibration routines built in. You can calibrate everything or just calibrate the rotating axis, individual tool lenghts and individual tool locations. The maintenance tab provides up to the minute run time and machine status in a text based report. The vpanel includes a tab to enter your email address. When the machine has completed a project it will email you. This is a very thoughtful feature that lets the operator carry on with their life withouth worrying about the status of the current job. Vpanel is loaded on your PC so updates with new features are a free, easy download from Roland.
3. Serviceability (I service 90% of my own equipment)
(A) Maintenance requirements are included the user's manual: Daily- clean machine after cutting operation ends. With a front loaded vacuum port it is extremely easy for an operator to pull out the hose and clean the machine. The easier it is to do this the more likely an operator will actually do it. Periodic maintenance- run the calibration routines in vpanel. Check the boxes, click the button and go get a cup of coffee. When you get back the machine is ready to go. You will also need to drain the moisture trap on the air regulator from time to time. Bottom line: you don't need to be a master mechanic or own a sophisticated set of calibtration and lubrication tools to own and operate a Roland DWX-50.
4. Milling time (time = $)
(A) A 98mm Zr puck of typical pieces (FCZ, copings, bridges) takes 4-5 hrs to complete on a DWX-50. Other mills might be able to do that job in 3-4 hours. But this is the most important point to consider: A $70,000 machine with a single spindle creates a finished puck in 3hrs vs. a $30,000 machine completing the job in 4hrs. At the end of 4 hrs you have a finished puck from either machine. Now, spend another $30,000 and you have 2 spindles (IE 2 DWX-50's) cutting two pucks in 4 hours.
If time = $ then I would rather spend $60K for 2 pucks every 4 hours than $70K for one puck in 3 hours. Now, what will I do with that other $10K in savings...?

One final thought, your DentMill software will work great with the DWX-50 and since you can connect and control up to 4 DWX-50's from a single computer there is no need to buy another license of software or more PC's as you add more DWX-50's. With a license of CAM going for about $8K and a PC costing about $1K DWX-50 users save $9,000 every time they add another machine to their production line.

-Glenn

 

[NicelyMKV]

Glenn, I assumed the Roland would mill at the same speed as the more expensive machines since Zr can only handle about a third of the Roland's potential feed rates? Using the same cam software and the same milling strategies of course.

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

I have heard mixed answers regarding speed. In theory, you are correct. It is a matter of physics since the tool can only go through the material at a maximum rate of speed efficently. In the convoluted world of sales it is a different story. With so many variables in play: spindle speed, feed rate, cut in amount, step over distance (IE milling strategies),material (type and size) and tools used it is wide open for companies to make all sorts of claims. When presenting a technical product I always like to rely on honest facts so I use an honest figure of 4-5 hours based on our own in house testing and feedback from customers.

I have heard other companies claim that they can cut faster than the DWX-50 which is how they try to justify their $70K plus price. If they say they can do the same thing in 3-4 hours then I have to take that at face value or have a way to test it. Even if it is true, we can still cut far more than them given the same money spent and time alloted.

I would love to see DLN user feedback on average puck processing times for all of the machines in service by DLN users. The ideal test would remove all of the variables and use the exact same geometry file, milling strategies, tools and material. Since everyone is busy making a living out there I don't know that that would be possible. But at least posting your average time to process a full (20-25 piece) 98mm x 14mm puck would be interesting to see. Include the name, model of machine, tool sizes used and CAM software and lets see what results actual users are getting from their mill.

 

[BobCDT]

I believe same mill strategy in different machines equals same mill time. As for milling in our Roland, we have developed a few different stratergies for milling. We have one for full contour we call HD that looks great and has very detailed anatomy when done. I have posted some picks in other threads. This strategy takes about 17minutes per unit when milling 5 or 6 units at a time. The more units added the faster the milling per unit.
We have also set up some speed mill stratergies that are faster.
Bob

 

[Drizzt]

Does anyone of the Roland owners/users here has photos and feedback of large bridges milled with Roland ? Everybody is showing single teeth , and the fit and occlusal anatomy looks great . What about large bridges . Is the fit as good as the singles ?

 

[NicelyMKV]

Does anyone of the Roland owners/users here has photos and feedback of large bridges milled with Roland ? Everybody is showing single teeth , and the fit and occlusal anatomy looks great . What about large bridges . Is the fit as good as the singles ?

I have been milling six unit anteriors with splinted abutments in wax. Fits are perfect. Give me a couple more weeks to get set up. I have ordered some equipment from another company that will not be in until the end of next week or the Beginning of the next. Then i will start showing a much larger variety of work types.

 

[DMC]

I have heard mixed answers regarding speed. In theory, you are correct. It is a matter of physics since the tool can only go through the material at a maximum rate of speed efficently. In the convoluted world of sales it is a different story. With so many variables in play: spindle speed, feed rate, cut in amount, step over distance (IE milling strategies),material (type and size) and tools used it is wide open for companies to make all sorts of claims. When presenting a technical product I always like to rely on honest facts so I use an honest figure of 4-5 hours based on our own in house testing and feedback from customers.

I have heard other companies claim that they can cut faster than the DWX-50 which is how they try to justify their $70K plus price. If they say they can do the same thing in 3-4 hours then I have to take that at face value or have a way to test it. Even if it is true, we can still cut far more than them given the same money spent and time alloted.

I would love to see DLN user feedback on average puck processing times for all of the machines in service by DLN users. The ideal test would remove all of the variables and use the exact same geometry file, milling strategies, tools and material. Since everyone is busy making a living out there I don't know that that would be possible. But at least posting your average time to process a full (20-25 piece) 98mm x 14mm puck would be interesting to see. Include the name, model of machine, tool sizes used and CAM software and lets see what results actual users are getting from their mill.

Glen, please discuss the Roland CNC Controller, and how it stacks up against other CNC Controlers.

How many blocks of look-ahead? I bet the limiting factor will be your controler for fast milling of internal spiral.

I only have experiencwe with IBH and Beckhoff Automation Controlers.

Does Mill have internal controler? or Hooked up to Home-Computer via only a single USB for I/O data on-the-fly?

Does my question make sense? I am not properly trained as you are.

Jason, just watch the actual feedrate during internal spiral, and see if you can maintain over 1000mm/minute.

The tool can take it, and the material can take it.... but I doubt the Roland Controler can process the coordinates that fast, no matter what feedrate you enter in the SUM3D CAM. The CNC Controler will not be able to keep up, and estimated milling time from SUM3D will show much faster mill time compared to real-life.


And maybe the rubber belts can't reverse directions that fast?

Thanks.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Mine does not have rubber belts? It does not have a controller in the traditional sense. It uses USB to connect to the computer for its information. USB is much faster than any of the old school methods used previously I am told. I don't think there is any problems in that area? I will try and see if I can test it some how and let you know though.

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

Scot, How long does it take you to complete a 98mm x 14mm puck of zirconia in your mill?

 

[ayane]

Glenn, Thanks for the great info!

As far as milling templates/strategies. I know that these are usually provided by the manufacturer/software provider, but I can see that you guys are developing your own. Is this mainly because of the milling time? Or maybe because extra detail is wanted sometimes? I'm sure the manufacturer/software provider provides the best compromise between both.

 

[ParkwayDental]

My Origin 3000 takes about 7.5 hours to mill a full 98.5 puck! Usually fit around 25 to 30 mix of full contour and copings! Lol BAM beat that!

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

Glenn, Thanks for the great info!

As far as milling templates/strategies. I know that these are usually provided by the manufacturer/software provider, but I can see that you guys are developing your own. Is this mainly because of the milling time? Or maybe because extra detail is wanted sometimes? I'm sure the manufacturer/software provider provides the best compromise between both.

Ayane,

At first Roland created a baseline set of templates/strategies for the common CAM packages that work with the DWX mills. Next, some of our resellers have also created their own sets of templates/strategies to optimize the results with specific brands of zirconia and end mills (burrs). Now many of the CAM vendors have access to a DWX mill so they can continue to test and optimize their post processors, templates and strategies.

As the DWX mills continue to grow in popularity worldwide more and more partners are working with us to give customers the best possible results with little or no CAD/CAM experience.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

My Origin 3000 takes about 7.5 hours to mill a full 98.5 puck! Usually fit around 25 to 30 mix of full contour and copings! Lol BAM beat that!

well sir, lets try to keep some perspective. realistically in order to gauge the "best" strategem to mill a full puck, one needs to supply enough work to warrant the use of a full puck. and one needs to keep this number up high enough to make the end result actually matter.

so you take 7.5 hrs to mill - great! now tell me if your lab works two shifts, to get those milled units stained and sintered and trimmed for shipping the next day 9am ? truthfully, without staff pushing that bunch of zirconias out the door, you might as well have a strategy that takes 11 hrs to mill.

either way, the cases won't be done until mid afternoon the next day. strategy being essentially a non-factor in the question "how many lab days for a FCZ?"

anyone can do 4hr turnaround for single FCZ including modelwork - but thats 1 case for the lab to focus on all day. that never happens. who makes money doing 1 case? what sane lab tech would promote 4hr turnaround for every FCZ they ever got? nobody!! you need a half a dozen cases, to chew on. you need more cases to make the hours be worth less in the long run.

milling time is moot.

 

[BobCDT]

Great point Glen!
We have 5 different models of milling machines and several differt CAM solutions. The CAM (Sum 3D) in conjunction with the DWX is by far the easiest to use and offers great precision. In addition, the mill doen not require full calculations for mill strategy prior to starting up the mill. So, when considering mill time this is a significent time savings. We can kick off a full 98mm puck very quickly when compared to all our other mills and CAM. In conclusion, I think we should be adding calculation time to mill time to really get a handle on efficiency.
Bob

 

[nik1618kin]

I believe same mill strategy in different machines equals same mill time. As for milling in our Roland, we have developed a few different stratergies for milling. We have one for full contour we call HD that looks great and has very detailed anatomy when done. I have posted some picks in other threads. This strategy takes about 17minutes per unit when milling 5 or 6 units at a time. The more units added the faster the milling per unit.
We have also set up some speed mill stratergies that are faster.
Bob

I'd like to ask you some information about a milling strategie (using a 0.3mm tool) for Roland DWX-50. I've read all your posts in Dental Lab Network about it. I must mention that I have a DWX50 running through a Sum3D CAM software in my lab (first Roland end user in Greece). My particular questions are:
1. The strategy is called "External Restmill" but adjusted for a 0.3mm tool? Is it available from Cimsystem?
2. How can I find these some small tools? In Europe, I can hardly find tools until 0.6mm for 4mm chuck that Roland requires. Any suggestions? I'm very interested because we mill many solid zirconia items in my lab.
3. Currently, we try to mill abutments. Do you mill zirconia abutments? Any recommendations or advice would be great.
Many thanks

 

[ParkwayDental]

well sir, lets try to keep some perspective. realistically in order to gauge the "best" strategem to mill a full puck, one needs to supply enough work to warrant the use of a full puck. and one needs to keep this number up high enough to make the end result actually matter.

so you take 7.5 hrs to mill - great! now tell me if your lab works two shifts, to get those milled units stained and sintered and trimmed for shipping the next day 9am ? truthfully, without staff pushing that bunch of zirconias out the door, you might as well have a strategy that takes 11 hrs to mill.


either way, the cases won't be done until mid afternoon the next day. strategy being essentially a non-factor in the question "how many lab days for a FCZ?"

anyone can do 4hr turnaround for single FCZ including modelwork - but thats 1 case for the lab to focus on all day. that never happens. who makes money doing 1 case? what sane lab tech would promote 4hr turnaround for every FCZ they ever got? nobody!! you need a half a dozen cases, to chew on. you need more cases to make the hours be worth less in the long run.

milling time is moot.

I completely agree, my personal opinion is I don't care how long it takes as long as the quality is there! My lab does not work two shifts it is just me working 12 hours a day 7 days a week to keep the flow of work moving along!

Realistically here at are lab we give 5 days in lab for a FCZ, a day to scan and design, a day to mill, a day to sinter, and two days to finish. Now we can do that in half the time but you are right without the staff pushing as hard as they can it can be done, but it isn't feasible!

Sorry for high jacking the thread for a minute!!

 

[CoolHandLuke]

quite alright, it allowed me to voice my opinion on the topic. i had no other platform.