Milling machines(My take on it)

BobCDT

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i take it your figures are based on the cost of the mill only bob?

not a whole set up, ie scanner, cad, cam and mill.
Hi Paul,
The figures include the loan for 100% of the cost of the mill, CAM (sum3D),The zirconia blanks and tools. I guess I should probably include cost of colorants and a sintering furnace as labs that don't have a mill will likely not have a sintering oven. Let me do it and I will post some new figures.
Bob
 
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NicelyMKV

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Scott, The individual I purchased it from is also a mechanical engineer. That's why I chose to deal with him. He explained a lot about these machines to me. He can tear them down and rebuild them etc. This particular spindle is also used in another machine that cuts aluminum. It calibrates itself as well. I will definitely keep an eye on it and let you know if I see anything negative. Looks pretty robust to me though.

Jason


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BobCDT

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OK Paul, here we go.
A Roland DWX 50 cost about $33 per day based on 21 days per month and a 5 year loan.
Toss in a $9K sintering furnace (average price) and the daily cost goes up to $40 a day. I am not sure what colorants cost but lets say $1 a unit.
So, a lab that outsources 10 zirconia units a day that is looking at a Roland can assume the unit cost will work out as follows
Loan $4 per unit
Zirconia $10
Tooling $1.5
Colorant $1
Total in house cost will be about $16.5 plus some electricity.

A lab producing 20 units a day will reduce cost to about $14.5 per day. However, once you produce this quantity the zirconia cost will (or should) go down with quantity purchasing. Taking this into consideration, the zirconia will go from $10 a unit to about $8. So, the actual unit cost is closer to $12.50 a unit. This is really a no brainer. Zirconia is going to get more esthetic , it mills very easily and is currently the fastest ground material in our market.
Bob
 
DevonR

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We are a small lab in a small town here in Ontario. We've purchased a used KaVo Everest System 2007 model, with the sintering furnace, white light scanner, all for the same price as your Roland unit. We recently invested 10 grand (should get 2 grand back in taxes so it turns out to be 8 g's) in the Kavo MultiCAd (exocad) software... the full deal, implants, bars, blah blah blah.... So this unit is now up-to-date, can design and mill absolutely anything, and in our small niche of Ontario makes us 100% competitive against the big boys trying to muscle us.

Too be honest, if we were not to purchase this machine, the ZirkonZahn M5 would be next in line. Yes, it's a closed system but ZZ answers that by providing you everything you could need to mill in the market.

However, note that we are not a production laboratory. So remember, your laboratories focus is the most important part in YOUR decision for what machine you purchase.

my 2 cents... (and yeah, the penny will be leaving ontario, so my nickels worth??? )
 
ayane

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I'm curious as to how the roland dwx-50 compares to the dentalmill (digital dental/turning solutions machine). In terms of:

1. Reliability (what good is an investment if it's down for maintenance more often than not)
2. Ease of use (faster/simpler blank loading, tool changes, operating software etc)
3. Serviceability (I service 90% of my own equipment)
4. Milling time (time = $)


Does anyone have any experience with both machines?

I am milling Zirconia/Wax blanks, and making my part files with DentMill. I'm not too concerned with initial purchasing costs when compared to much more important variables (at least in my opinion/application) like the ones stated above.
 
C

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Its a closed system, you must buy Crystal zirconia.. Origins machines are the same, you must buy only what B&D sales.. If you think Crystal is the best zirconia to mill this year, and years to come, it should be a good investment.
 
ayane

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It's only a closed system if you don't want to pay the extra fee.

I'd like to compare machine to machine, leaving the material out of it.
 
BobCDT

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It's only a closed system if you don't want to pay the extra fee.

I'd like to compare machine to machine, leaving the material out of it.
"Leaving the materials out of it" will likely be a mistake. There are more than 40 companies world wide racing to improve the esthetics and other properties of zirconia. If you buy a closed mill with the opinion that the company you are purchasing it from has a competitive material today. This could change tomorrow. then what??
B
 
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ayane

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You're 100% correct. In a setting where you are limited by material manufacturer, because of your choice/license agreement with their milling machine, you are only hurting your business. Cost per unit might be lower but Zirconia is still a new(ish) material, many manufactures are still innovating and in open design with their sales product and sticking with a single manufacturer (not by choice) can limit you to choices that would otherwise improve your product and decrease your price per unit etc etc.(weather it be improved esthetics, improved material handle-ability, higher strength etc).

However, I am not looking at this from a purely "price per unit" point of view, as most labs do. I only wish to get the most use out of what I eventually purchase, regardless of how much I've paid. With that being said, I'm sure someone will soon say "just buy a DMG ultra sonic and call it a day." Sadly, I don't have the space or throughput for such a machine. I'm looking for a tabletop.
 
biodentg

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I saw the Origin 50. It was still incomplete as far as I knew? I think it was the one you are talking about. I talked a little with the developer. I didn't think it was a yenadent machine though? He was from Korea.

The 4 and 500 series seemed like pretty heavy duty mills. I was looking at the 400 with dual puck holders at first. I then decided I would like to have a 5 axis machine just in case. The price of the 500 was almost double that of the Roland after Origins price increase. I personally wanted an open Cam as well. I want to put whatever I want in it without relying on someone else to allow it. Don't get me wrong, I understand why Origins set it up the way they did. I just preferred it another way. I also like the idea of daisy chaining multiple Rolands together if the need ever arose under one Cam license;)

I also looked at the weiland mini. Another nice machine. The extra axis of the Roland and sum3d helped steer me the other direction though. I am still waiting on the BOFA vac unit that was specifically designed for the Roland. Cuts on and off automatically with the machine etc. I will definitely keep everyone posted on my experiences with the Roland. I will put it through everything I can think of in the next few months;)

Thanks Jason, for some reason I had the idea that you were working with the Origin team, since I saw you in Chicago talking with Jessie. Anyway probably I should had introduce myself and share some ideas.
The information you are sharing is very important, I need urgently a desktop milling machine and I was waiting for the release of the 50. Maybe I should retake the Roland idea I had originally. Please, if you can forward information about your Roland dealer to [email protected] I'll appreciate it very much.
By the way I have a good offer for the Roland but there is an extra $10k for Delcam software. Perhaps Sum3D is a better $$$ option.
Thanks again
Jorge
 
NicelyMKV

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Thanks Jason, for some reason I had the idea that you were working with the Origin team, since I saw you in Chicago talking with Jessie. Anyway probably I should had introduce myself and share some ideas.
The information you are sharing is very important, I need urgently a desktop milling machine and I was waiting for the release of the 50. Maybe I should retake the Roland idea I had originally. Please, if you can forward information about your Roland dealer to [email protected] I'll appreciate it very much.
By the way I have a good offer for the Roland but there is an extra $10k for Delcam software. Perhaps Sum3D is a better $$$ option.
Thanks again
Jorge

Jorge, you should have came over and said hello! I would have enjoyed talking to you.

I use the origin intelligence cad cam system from B&D dental. They asked if I would show their design software which is exocad. That was all.

I really like my Roland so far. Honestly it was set up as a demo and after seeing what it could do and playing around with sum3d, I was hooked. The individual I deal with is Thomas Buck. His number is (865) 805-6831. He really knows his stuff about these machines. He is out if Knoxville, Tn. Hope you get what you need;)
Jason
 
NicelyMKV

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Here is a test crown. I'm waiting for the rest of my burs so I only used a 1mm. Pretty good for one bur;) fit was perfect. Scanned with origin intelligence white light scanner, designed with Exocad, cam software sum3D with Roland mill. I will remill this crown Wednesday with my smaller burs and post a comparative result. 1:1 is looking pretty promising. The prep is also less than ideal.




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CoolHandLuke

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if i may, let me throw in a few cents worth of experience here, as we have now had the laserdenta OpenCAD system since august 2010. while i dont know much about the sales figures, here is how wegot through the "1 year growing pains" that come with this and many other machines.

1. in the first place, we did not know much about sintering, or colouring. when we outsourced that previously, it was already done. so getting the sintering time down was problem number 1. fit, polish, and translucency were big issues, and kinking that out isnt easy to do when the company providing you with your zirconia also can't help you, and the sintering machine company doe not have english support (at the time they didnt, they do now).

2. shade. this one may sound like a fallacy, but NO (repeat: NO) staining/dipping solution that we have come across other than zirkonzahn have had any explicit instructions to the use of their kit. no salesperson was able to direct us how to use Vita/s YZ dip system, the GC kit trims off and doesnt absorb into the zirconia, and NOBODY explains this to you from the get-go. by the time you finish working out the kinks in the kit, you are halfway through it and might need a new one very soon.

3. zirconia remake factor. stellar, this one. over time we have probably made 3 units for every 1 that we sold; it takes a while between getting zirconia that doesnt crumble to pieces in your hand, and stains that stain properly, and techs that dont drill through the final product, nevermind doctors who layer on 1mm of mother effing glue and end up grinding the heck out of the anatomy you worked so hard on.

4. inevitable unexplicable machine errors. every so often, no matter how hard you worked on your system, it encounters an error, that is much like the check engine light on your car; DING! please pay someone 1000$ to continue. we've had it where the milling machine's tooling arm doesnt *Exactly* repeat the pickup/place position, and ends up pushing the tool through the hole, and although the bur isn not broken, it is now not useable, as the collar rides too high on the shank and the machine cannot pick it up anymore. DING!! plaease order a new bur.

5. supplier no supplying. when it's crunch time, you need your product out the door, and you need to have product in order to make product. we place orders every 2 weeks like clockwork, even if we dont need new pucks. why? suppliers tend to back order on us; most recently we've been on back order for Metoxit blocks since JANUARY 2012. because of this, we've switched suppliers. i will not name names.

if its not one thing its another - and no estimated cost of a machine is even remotely close to the actual cost of operating a machine. you can't seriously sit there and not factor in the most crucial factor of all: the cohith factor. Come On How In The Hell.

i suspect the zirkonzahn machine and all the things they provide will come at a premium pricepoint. and you'll be obligated to only use their stuff, and you won't get the proper results when you combine other products in the process.
 
harmonylab

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So the Roland DWX-50 works flawlessly with the origin scanner and exocad?
 
dmonwaxa

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To those who own Origin closed system, whats the cost per unit; zr coping vs FCZ?
 
NicelyMKV

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So the Roland DWX-50 works flawlessly with the origin scanner and exocad?

Flawlessly! ;) just wait until I get the rest of my burs. Then I'll show you just how good;)
 
biodentg

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Thanks Jason, sorry for thinking you were a "hoax" :D , I'll post some pictures of a cool case currently under production in your Exocad thread.
 
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