Zirkonzahn is it capable of milling metal?

[Mohammad Khair]

Not all the M5 are the same setup.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

I think the market trend will define the range of product, zirecon machines is of lower price, more demand, and easier to produce, and have a very much better ROI for techs and labs.

 

[Sydceramist]

I saw the M1 at a show was leaking out the bottom of the front lid while wet milling, was not impressed.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

I saw the M1 at a show was leaking out the bottom of the front lid while wet milling, was not impressed.

Have you seen something else, would really like to hear from someone who see it.

 

[Torquadon]

The lab with the m1 is milling both cocr and ti also they are milling bars and abutments the software they are using is the latest from zz which is exocad based.I have also experienced the this is what is coming from zz they do it to see what has the most interest then they dedicate r&d to it a bit frustrating yes but not really any different to a lot of other companies ie ivoclar vita and the big implant guys..The m1 is past that stage i saw the m1 abutment mill milling metal in real life with my own eyes and everything.With zz you have to change the way you think or you will go crazy.They are definitely ahead of the rest in their field they solve problems that no one else can.But because they are out there the systems aren't just turn key however because they are further along than most, most of the time you put up with it and end up doing stuff you never thought was possible about 2-5 years before everyone else.Its interesting how they are perceived around the world just hearing that they are a closed system still after all these years shows how little is still known about them.I have a lot of respect for the company as I have been buying their products from the very beginning I had 1 of the 1st hand mills and one of the 1st m5 both machines expanded my business greatly and are the reason why im still a techo I would have throne it in years ago otherwise.

Could you please give some examples regarding milling which ZZ does that you believe they do "about 2-5 years before everyone else"?

 

[Torquadon]

The Versamill is only offered with the 3kW DC spindle. However we have evaluated many 60,000 rpm spindles recently and over the years and we have found that these spindles are usually found in dental applications as around 1.6kW or so AC spindles which not hold a candle to the DC spindle we provide in the Versamill.

Once you really scrutinize the spec's on the spindles...in terms of the torque it might become clear. If you look at the power/torque curves, the DC spindle has approx 2X the torque (not power but torque which is what really counts) of their AC brethern and just do not get the job done; especially in machining chromium alloy's.

Although a 60,000 rpm AC spindle is available (and indeed less expensive) from the OEM we do not offer the Versamill in that configuration. It just does not meet our requirements in terms of power, longevity, reliability, machine cycle times, surface finish and tool wear for the type of machine we strive to provide; a truly industrial quality machine in a small footprint.

Could you please help me find power/torque diagrams for Versamill spindle you are talking about?

 

[brayks]

Could you please help me find power/torque diagrams for Versamill spindle you are talking about?

Sure. Also, below is a "brief" comparison of the Versamill's spindle compared to a "typical" AC spindle that might be found in dental applications.

A quick analysis of these graphs shows a typical Brand “X” AC Spindle (1.8kW),characteristically has high torque in the low rpm range. However this range is of no real concern or use to us as we require the spindle to operate at high rpm.

The graphs also show the Versamill’s 3kW DC Spindle, in the normal operating rage for our applications, to be 2 to 3 times more powerful than the AC Spindle. For example:

At 0-45,000rpm (which is actually quite sufficient) the DC spindle provides a constant torque of 65Ncm while the AC spindle provides significantly lower toque levels which decrease in value from approximately 58Ncm @ 30,000rpm to only 29Ncm @ 45,000rpm (the most useful speed range) - at MAXIMUM rating. Further The AC spindle torque drops to a mere 9Ncm just over 40,000rpm S1 – continuous duty rating.
​

To achieve shorter cycle times for dental restoration manufacturing we require high torque at high spindle speeds (S1 continuous duty ratings). Most (if not all) AC spindles we have seen in "small footprint" CNC machines do not perform at a level to meet our requirements in “hard milling” applications.

Of course specifications/curves change from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model however this is what to characteristically expect.

Be very cautious of spindles running at a torque/power level above its S1 rating. Doing so will surely result in high spindle mortality rates.

Sorry for the babble; just one guys opinion…

Some “interesting” reading (maybe)?: http://www.walkermachinery.net/fw/main/the-great-spindle-debate-1608.html

 

[grantoz]

torquadon Im happy to give you some examples 1st full arch zirconia bridges when lava could only mill 4 units I was milling full arches that fitted.Then we milled full arch implant bridges and single implants in zirconia on a number of different implant systems at least 2-3 years before anyone else that didn't have zz then prettau came out a long time before bruxir then aquarrell prettau super trans is already released fda approved etc.I hope this helps.Also their milling machines themselves have had more advanced software for zirconia.When that isn't available you use the hand mill.I should also add the cross pinning system that was out a long time before anyone else also.

 

[Torquadon]

torquadon Im happy to give you some examples 1st full arch zirconia bridges when lava could only mill 4 units I was milling full arches that fitted.Then we milled full arch implant bridges and single implants in zirconia on a number of different implant systems at least 2-3 years before anyone else that didn't have zz then prettau came out a long time before bruxir then aquarrell prettau super trans is already released fda approved etc.I hope this helps.Also their milling machines themselves have had more advanced software for zirconia.When that isn't available you use the hand mill.I should also add the cross pinning system that was out a long time before anyone else also.

Thanks for the information, but what you are showing is that they use to have advantage, they do not have it any more I believe (unless I am missing something here),and i wouldn't buy milling machine just because they used to be innovative.

 

[grantoz]

ok personal judgement I still find they have an advantage iv been looking at new equipment .I have been trying new mills zz mills I find are still better I know some mills from other companies read really well but when I tried them in real situations even just milling zirconia my m5 zz mill was still better and its 5 years old that was with us milling exactly the same job both mills side by side with the tech person from the company's running their machines. Im just trying to help other techs make better stuff I see a lot of hype out there and some pretty blinkered opinions some probably say the same about me .But I have done the hard yards and Im just trying to share some stuff I have found as a lot of people in the industry don't.Thats what I love about this site is the sharing and the scaring.

 

[Drizzt]

torquadon Im happy to give you some examples 1st full arch zirconia bridges when lava could only mill 4 units I was milling full arches that fitted.Then we milled full arch implant bridges and single implants in zirconia on a number of different implant systems at least 2-3 years before anyone else that didn't have zz then prettau came out a long time before bruxir then aquarrell prettau super trans is already released fda approved etc.I hope this helps.Also their milling machines themselves have had more advanced software for zirconia.When that isn't available you use the hand mill.I should also add the cross pinning system that was out a long time before anyone else also.

Gratntoz , full arch bridges are milled in Wieland and imes icore machines for over 10 years now , long before ZZ even existed . It was one of the marketing tools for zirconia when it was first introduced to the market , full arch bridges . Of course you understand that your statement in completely inaccurate . The only breakthrough from ZZ is Zirkonzahn Prettau material . I would never put this or any of the other similar translucent zirconia materials in my mouth but this is my personal opinion . Oh , also having lab turbines for CNC spindle is also a breakthrough .

I am glad you're happy with your machine , but ZZ is a step behind IMO . All closed systems are destined to extinction , again my opinion . When other systems were milling e.max , PEEK materials and metal , ZZ couldn't . But , if my business was with milling Prettau full arches all the time , I would go with ZZ for sure .

 

[grantoz]

last time I looked it does mill all those materials and has done for quite a while.where do you get closed from the system isn't I export and import files all the time from different places. yes the puck sizes are different but plenty of companies make pucks of differnet materials for my machine.I personally was definitely milling full ach zirconia before weiland etc could. they couldn't even get there zirconia to fit over a full arch. zz has been going longer than you think also when the weiland rep came into my lab all excited because they finally bring out a trans zirconia 4 years after I had started and then im showing the full arch stuff I was doing his eyes nearly fell out.By the way what mill are you using you sound pretty happy with it. Its also interesting the latest weiland machines don't wetmill or do metal and its a converted vhf machine which technically does but not particularly well.By the by im milling a peek bridge Monday.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

we've all done things ahead of the curve; i designed a full arch fixed orthotic using the coping software in 3shape (in 2009) - doesnt mean thats the intended workflow for it, nor does it mean everyone can.

yes grantoz maybe you did mill trans pucks ahead of its support in wieland. but typically people who buy machinery valued in the 5 figure range tend to treat it as though it should last. particularly dental guys. dental guys buy machine because the sticker said it could do emax. they don't put new and wild things into it that arent tested and might hurt their machine.

just because youve done it and had acceptable results does not preclude everyone can - we have no documentation of any changes you may have made, or anything youve done in terms of workflow.

you are like the car nut; while 99% of people who buy cars don't ever race them you are in th 1% of people that put new mufflers, manifolds, gadgets and gizmos to make it faster and better.

which makes you the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Drizzt]

last time I looked it does mill all those materials and has done for quite a while.where do you get closed from the system isn't I export and import files all the time from different places. yes the puck sizes are different but plenty of companies make pucks of differnet materials for my machine.I personally was definitely milling full ach zirconia before weiland etc could. they couldn't even get there zirconia to fit over a full arch. zz has been going longer than you think also when the weiland rep came into my lab all excited because they finally bring out a trans zirconia 4 years after I had started and then im showing the full arch stuff I was doing his eyes nearly fell out.By the way what mill are you using you sound pretty happy with it. Its also interesting the latest weiland machines don't wetmill or do metal and its a converted vhf machine which technically does but not particularly well.By the by im milling a peek bridge Monday.

Grantoz , when was Zirkonzahn founded ? When was M5 released ? Wieland had big ass machines 15 years ago and was milling full arches with them . I am almost certain that Zirkonzahn didn't even exist at that time . If they fited or not is in the eye of the beholder . For me perfect fit is completely passive fit and sealed margins under microscope . For others is not . So the fit thing is a little cloudy . Were you milling PEEK or e.max 3 years ago ?

I personaly have a custom made Yenadent D40 . I am milling CoCr screw retained full arches, Titanium custom abutments and Titanium bars everyday with it . Yes I am really happy with my choice . It fits perfectly for my lab's needs . You can see some of my work on the Yenadent thread .

I have heard horror stories from ZZ owners , mostly in the US , with using pucks from other companies . Stories like the mill wasn't working properly after they used them . Stories that sounded like sabotage . I have no own experience with the system though , so I believe that these stories might be bad personal experiences and not the truth .

In any case , I am sure Zirkonzan is an excellent system for some labs . As all systems . For me the perfect system is the one that suits each lab's needs .

 

[Torquadon]

Grantoz , when was Zirkonzahn founded ? When was M5 released ? Wieland had big ass machines 15 years ago and was milling full arches with them . I am almost certain that Zirkonzahn didn't even exist at that time . If they fited or not is in the eye of the beholder . For me perfect fit is completely passive fit and sealed margins under microscope . For others is not . So the fit thing is a little cloudy . Were you milling PEEK or e.max 3 years ago ?

I personaly have a custom made Yenadent D40 . I am milling CoCr screw retained full arches, Titanium custom abutments and Titanium bars everyday with it . Yes I am really happy with my choice . It fits perfectly for my lab's needs . You can see some of my work on the Yenadent thread .

I have heard horror stories from ZZ owners , mostly in the US , with using pucks from other companies . Stories like the mill wasn't working properly after they used them . Stories that sounded like sabotage . I have no own experience with the system though , so I believe that these stories might be bad personal experiences and not the truth .

In any case , I am sure Zirkonzan is an excellent system for some labs . As all systems . For me the perfect system is the one that suits each lab's needs .

We ordered DC40 from Yenadent last mont, and we are using Rolland DWX30 and DWX50 for zirconia, wax and pmma. Open systems are definitely way to go. I only asked about ZZ to find out why I am getting different info from users and reps.

 

[Drizzt]

We ordered DC40 from Yenadent last mont, and we are using Rolland DWX30 and DWX50 for zirconia, wax and pmma. Open systems are definitely way to go. I only asked about ZZ to find out why I am getting different info from users and reps.

You will be soooo happy with DC40 ! Great machine !! You won't believe your eyes ! Congrats !! Where are you located ? I work closely with Yenadent !

 

[Torquadon]

We are located in UK. Good to know that there is someone on this forum who already has it.

 

[Drizzt]

There are more than one , see this thread

http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/threads/yenadent-origin-milling-machines.18308/

 

[browncharles]

Zirkonzahn is capable of milling metal, but the possibility of expected quality results is sometimes low.