Zirkonzahn is it capable of milling metal?

[Torquadon]

Hi,

could you please share some light on this matter ? I have heard that regardless advertising M1 machine is not capable of doing it yet, and that there is no telling when and if it will happen?

Thanks

 

[Mohammad Khair]

Hi,

could you please share some light on this matter ? I have heard that regardless advertising M1 machine is not capable of doing it yet, and that there is no telling when and if it will happen?

Thanks

They have different setups for M1 , the heavy wet milling one is capable to mill mostly everything as per ZZ claim which i trust as all of their product is of high quality, however i never try it.

so not all setups are the same for M1, have a look:

http://zirkonzahn.com/us/cad-cam-systems/milling-unit-m1/milling-unit-m1-wet-heavy

 

[Sam-CAP]

I like how ZZ says it can mill wood... Good old George Washington teeth are coming back into style.

 

[Torquadon]

I am aware what ZZ says, but I have heard that even with heavy setup is not capable of milling metal simply because software does not include strategies yet. That is why I am asking if anyone who owns it can share some light

 

[grantoz]

Not true zz m1 can mill metal I know a lab is already milling metal with it and is very happy and a bit surprised . The wood blocks started out as a joke because people kept on asking Enrico if zirconia was biocompatible and was it radio active because of the yittrium when he 1st started the company.So he said give them something biocompatible and released wood blocks which are now used for jewellery. In the early days a lot of people wanted to find ways that zirk couldn't work which was a bit unfair but by the same token with that much scrutiny the material has certainly proven its self.

 

[Torquadon]

Not true zz m1 can mill metal I know a lab is already milling metal with it and is very happy and a bit surprised . The wood blocks started out as a joke because people kept on asking Enrico if zirconia was biocompatible and was it radio active because of the yittrium when he 1st started the company.So he said give them something biocompatible and released wood blocks which are now used for jewellery. In the early days a lot of people wanted to find ways that zirk couldn't work which was a bit unfair but by the same token with that much scrutiny the material has certainly proven its self.

Could you please ask if they can mill abutments, implant bars, bridges and single units both in crco and titanium? Could you also ask what is current software version they run? Because lab I know cant do it and ZZ support, according to this lab, claims it is not yet ready?

We are interested in the machine, but we need to know if it is capable of doing what we need.

 

[Drizzt]

If you really want to mill a lot of metal , buy something bigger . I don't know if the ZZ M1 can mill it or how good the result will be , but for sure it is a small machine . Capability of milling metal , doesn't ensure that the machine will be able to do it consistently with great results and for a long time . Milling metal is a complicated thing , far more complicated than milling soft materials .

 

[Torquadon]

I am perfectly aware how complicated is milling of metal. I am not asking if it is capable to mill big volumes, I am asking if it is capable to mill things I have mentioned above. I am not looking for general advise on ho to mill metal or which machine can do it. I am strictly interested if ZZ M1 can mill abutments, bar bridges etc. in metal (crco titnium) as ZZ reps claim. Reason I am asking is very simple: I have different info from ZZ reps on one side and 2 owners of the machine on second side.

 

[Drizzt]

So , are you questioning just the ability , or the result , which is what counts in the end of the day ? I am sure it can mill metal .

Why don't you scan a bridge or bar or whatever you want to test , send it to ZZ , have them mill it with a M1 , and then check it on your model ?

Personally , I wouldn't buy a small machine to mill bars . I have a big a$$ machine and milling bars is not an easy thing , and I mil one or two every week .

Good luck to your research .

 

[LA Ceramics]

Can it mill metal?,...Yes, Should it mill metal? ,..No.

Most of us are familiar with the uplifting children's storybook entitled "The Little Engine That Could",..it was a best seller. The sequel entitled "Day 2, The Little Engine That Couldn't" didn't do nearly as well which is a shame because just like the the first book,..it contained a valuable lesson....

 

[rkm rdt]

....go straight to dvd?

 

[Torquadon]

So , are you questioning just the ability , or the result , which is what counts in the end of the day ? I am sure it can mill metal .

Why don't you scan a bridge or bar or whatever you want to test , send it to ZZ , have them mill it with a M1 , and then check it on your model ?

Personally , I wouldn't buy a small machine to mill bars . I have a big a$$ machine and milling bars is not an easy thing , and I mil one or two every week .

Good luck to your research .

For me it is pretty clear that in dental technology terms if we say it can mill something we mean it can mill something which fits at least as good as average manual job, why would I be interested in inaccurate milling machine? As for second part of your answer, if I get different info from owners and different info from ZZ reps do you really believe sending stl file to ZZ will do me any good? It is machine users feedback I am after.

Also as I am not trying to convince anyone to use small machines. M1 was advertised to us as machine which is capable of accurate milling of implant abutments, bars and bridges. I am simply looking for information from someone who is using it on everyday basis if that information is accurate or not.

 

[ParkwayDental]

Out of curiosity what is the price point on the M1 including cam?

 

[Drizzt]

For me it is pretty clear that in dental technology terms if we say it can mill something we mean it can mill something which fits at least as good as average manual job, why would I be interested in inaccurate milling machine? As for second part of your answer, if I get different info from owners and different info from ZZ reps do you really believe sending stl file to ZZ will do me any good? It is machine users feedback I am after.

Also as I am not trying to convince anyone to use small machines. M1 was advertised to us as machine which is capable of accurate milling of implant abutments, bars and bridges. I am simply looking for information from someone who is using it on everyday basis if that information is accurate or not.

I am milling metal everyday in my lab . Trust me , ability in general , and ability to produce a consistent high quality result are too completely different things in metal milling . Especially for implant screw retained or bar cases .

I trully believe that sending a stl will do you good . It did for me , helping me eliminate some of the machines I was looking into metal milling because of their bad results .

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that big machines are better for metal milling , I don't need to because it is a fact . Ask anyone .

I am just trying to help you , as everyone here , you don't have to be aggresive to your replies .

 

[Torquadon]

I am milling metal everyday in my lab . Trust me , ability in general , and ability to produce a consistent high quality result are too completely different things in metal milling . Especially for implant screw retained or bar cases .

I trully believe that sending a stl will do you good . It did for me , helping me eliminate some of the machines I was looking into metal milling because of their bad results .

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that big machines are better for metal milling , I don't need to because it is a fact . Ask anyone .

I am just trying to help you , as everyone here , you don't have to be aggresive to your replies .

I am not trying to be aggressive, I just try to point exactly what I am interested in. My problem is I am getting different information from users and ZZ reps, if M1 was only machine they making sending stl file would sort my problem but it isn't, so it doesn't. I agree with you on big machines, it is fact they mill metal better.

Normally I would say that if you need to mill bars, you need proper big machine to do it, but ZZ reps claim that M1 can mill bars and abutments, and only downside is speed.
On the other side we know 2 labs that bought it and they say it doesn't work and that they cannot get it sorted. I was hoping I can get some information from M1 users if they have the same kind of problems.

 

[ParkwayDental]

WHAT IS THE PRICE OF THE M1 AND CAM??????

 

[rkm rdt]

2 different labs opinions would carry much more weight than a sales reps claims to me.

I like Drizzits idea of sending a file to zz for evaluation. Makes sense to me. I'm sure the reps would be willing to back up their claims with proof.

If they can't then you have saved yourself a lot of money and are free to go in a different direction.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

the ability of the machine is also highly dependent on the proficiency of the operator.

when we got a Versamill 5x (and i'm not saying this is the solution for you) we had an extensive training session to understand the inner operations of the software. i understand now why a lot of people don't like delcam or find it difficult. they don't follow the logic and are assuming the workflow is more straightforward than it really is.

with zz its probably a lot of the same scenario; the zz guys know their software inside out and the labs who buy in only really understand a bit, but will understand more over time if they dare to push buttons on their own and figure out by trial and error. very few people who drop hundreds of g's on machines want to figure it out for themselves. it should be ready straight out of the box. that's thinking like a businessman and not like a realist. your two lab friends with an M1 might not adequately know what they are doing. unfortunately this happens all the time and gives a bad name to some machines out there. hell i know people with a haas that can't mill emax properly.

so answering the question of "can the M1 mill metal" well yes, to a certain extent. theres probably a bucket of implants that are not compatible, remain undeveloped, or are plain impossible. can it do copings, fc, and bars in crco and ti? maybe. if their software is anything like sum3d or delcam however, there needs to be some reworking of that given the machine is likely sold ready for zirconia out of the box.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

The trick here is the time, i think it will mill virtually any dental alloy but most likely it will need near double the time of a big machine.
just changing the cam parameters if programmed to allow to do so, then it will mill it, even slower but could give better finish as the step layer will be smaller and the spindle speed will be most likely a little higher.
so if you don't have plenty of cases and no rush then go for it.
i think ZZ have think of this and allow for such a cam control, you can ask them directly about this feature in particular if you still confused.

 

[Drizzt]

I am not trying to be aggressive, I just try to point exactly what I am interested in. My problem is I am getting different information from users and ZZ reps, if M1 was only machine they making sending stl file would sort my problem but it isn't, so it doesn't. I agree with you on big machines, it is fact they mill metal better.

Normally I would say that if you need to mill bars, you need proper big machine to do it, but ZZ reps claim that M1 can mill bars and abutments, and only downside is speed.
On the other side we know 2 labs that bought it and they say it doesn't work and that they cannot get it sorted. I was hoping I can get some information from M1 users if they have the same kind of problems.

I would value the lab owner's opinion . Reps would say anything to sell, even if they can't back it up . After they sell it , they simply don't care . At least this is my experience when dealing with reps from any company .

I partially agree with Coolhandluke . Most of the times , training isn't proper . BUT , I think the companies should provide it . Not train you for 1 day and then off you go , operate a CNC machine . I am a dental tech , no CNC engineer . The thing I don't like with ZZ , other than being a closed system , is that the publish things , that WILL be released , and make people think that they are available this instant . 3 years ago , I visited Gais , where ZZ's HQ is , and I saw the M5 . They told me it can mill metal . But then they said to me that milling metal with it , will reduce the machine's life and that it is too slow . Indeed it is slow . 45 minutes for a coping . I currently mill metal around 22-25 minutes average . They were claiming that many features are ''coming soon'' Some of them , still haven't come . I am afraid metal milling capability of M1 is just like that . My point is , that ZZ is having great marketing , but in the real world , in a real lab , it kinda lacks . Unless you're doing Prettau stuff . Then yes , it is the best out there , made to do this exactly .

To sum it up , I would look elsewhere for metal milling , there are many proven systems out there , made to do that . Hope that helped .

Good luck pal !