zircon chipping - amann girrbach milling machine and 3shape software.

[chr1978]

We recieved your Amann Girrbach motion 2 milling machine and 3shape scanner/software(2013) 3 months ago. The problem is chipping. There is no problem when milling wax, sintron(chromecobolt),temp - only when were milling zirconia copings and anatomical copings. Almost 1/3 af the copings has chipped edges. I have tried everything from changing the position af the connectors and the size af the connections in the ceramill match software.
The sales rep from Girrbach told me they had discoved a problem with the cam output from 3shape and it should be fixed with the new update from 3shape. I have installed the new update 1 week ago and the problem is still there.

Were are using the standard settings from Amann Girrbach and have even added thickness to the copings - nothing seems to do the trick.

Prior to recieving our machines, we had a 3shape scanner/software(2013) and a vhf milling machine for testing. The VHf did not chip the copings and it was much better at milling around the connectors.

Is the ceramill software crap or are the sales rep right about 3shape and chipping? I suspect the problem is with the motion 2 software.

Please help me!! It is extremly frustrating to waste 3-4 expensive girrbach zircon blanks every month since they cost over 200 euros a piece.

 

[RileyS]

Sorry I can't help. But selfishly curious to know how many fcz units you get from a puck?

 

[chr1978]

at least 25 - sometimes more

 

[RileyS]

at least 25 - sometimes more

25 full contour zirconia?! That seems like a great number

 

[biodentg]

Change the burs

 

[corona]

its got to be your burs or spindle no?

 

[primus]

Change your tools.

 

[BobCDT]

Change the mill.

 

[JohnWilson]

I can honestly say that when nesting a full disk I error on the conservative side, trying to jam in a couple of extra units to save $20 of material while risking failure of a disk seems like a poor gamble to me. However I have had an inordinate amount of Bi's in one day and reached a 30 units in one disk. Very out of the normal days production.

Spiderwebbing multiple units together is something I don't go for with Zircon, one bar fractures and you are SOL.

 

[charles007]

Demand a new mill or refund immediately, and a refund on all the disks and tools replaced.... Also ask your rep to bring one of their scanner to prove the point that your 3shape scanner is the problem.. I call BS on that statement. Don't let another month pass so you can get a refund if they can't fix the problem. YOUR now making payments on a piece of equipment that costing You money.... get-err-done and move on..
I know a milling lab that still hasn't replaced any tools off their imes-icore mill in 3 months of use without chipping.. Did your chipping start from the beginning ? or just started chipping after the new smell wore off the mill lol Have you replaced the tools, and did it help ?

 

[chr1978]

We replace the burrs all the time when the computer ask us to , so they are ok. The test blocks we mill are within test parametres when measured. But I will ask the sales rep to bring his ovn scanner/software so he can prove me wrong. It's frustrating not knowing if I am an idiot or it's an equipment failure.

 

[BobCDT]

Make sure the chuck in screwed in tight.

 

[primus]

design is too thin, or the margin reinforcement is too thin.

The mill is pretty nice. 2x better than a Rolo IMO.

I know people happy with it.

 

[shane williams]

The only chipping I get is when I try stretch the bur life. I have had some problems with holes but that was my fault with a thin coping. Does the mill require you to use certain burs or can you purchase from different manufactors? If you're using carbide burs then your only going to get around 30 units before they need changed, where diamond coated burs get closer to 150. How many units are you getting before the software tells you to change?

 

[BobCDT]

We are selling tools into Roland and Imes mills.
For zirconia we get 80 units from set of carbide tools
Diamond coated is 500 plus units.

 

[Labwa]

That sounds a bit more like it.

 

[martintay]

I know nothing about milling- all i do know is that when we started using a different milling center to Straumann we had to increase the margin cutting angle to 60` as the margins were to fine and coming back chipped. No problem since increasing this ! Also i believe they use very high quality/expensive mills.

 

[Sevan P]

I say the tools as well.

Here is a tip, I did this on our Roland and Imes 340i

Make a chart in word or excel. Lets say the machine has 5 tools, you would make 5 rows all the way the length of the paper, tool1, tool2, tool3, tool4, tool5. Now stick that to the front of the machine where you load the pucks so every time you cut you mark the amount cut on those tool on the chart. Reason I do this is to keep track of how many units I have cut, per day, how many units I can get on a set of burs, and it lets you know a ballpark figure of when your probably start to see chipping. It saved my rear a few time when I was near the end of the burs life and had to cut a long span bridge, I counted the number of units then decided to swap a new set in then cut the big bridge.

I was getting 150-180 on my 1mm Tilladium tools for the roland and about 120-150 on the 2mm NON coated that is. On the 340i I got as high as 1800 on the 2.5mm coated and 900 on the 1mm before it broke, im sure the 1mm would go higher if it didn't break.

Also out of the 1mm and 2mm the 2mm is going to be the one that starts to chip first cause you will notice that the 2mm chips the extra left over for the 1mm to clean up. We used to change out both burs when chipping occured now I change out the roughing bur is the first one I change out then the finishing tool. That charts helps out big time with that cause now you can see how many cuts you have and roughly how many more you can go.

But If you do not have separate burs for separate material start of doing so first.

Also do you have different tool to cut ZR, PMMA wax and so on? Or do you cut everything on one set of burs? Reason I ask is I was cutting everything on one set and noticed that I was changing burs really fast, once I separated pmma and wax from ZR I noticed I was changing the burs WAY less often. How many tool does the machine have?

Here is a image of the chart I have also made a download link you can download the word chart and modify it if needed. I mark 10 marks in each box for each tool, llll then the fifth one crosses the four from corner to corner making that five, much easier to count in the end.



Download link Tool Chat

Sevan

 

[Sevan P]

We are selling tools into Roland and Imes mills.
For zirconia we get 80 units from set of carbide tools
Diamond coated is 500 plus units.

Bob only 80 units? How much are those tools? I get the tools for the Rolnad for about $35.00 and get well over 100 cuts NON COATED. I know that feed rate and RPM has a role in bur life, but still 80 seem a bit low no? Have you tried to push for a little more?

 

[Sevan P]

design is too thin, or the margin reinforcement is too thin.

The mill is pretty nice. 2x better than a Rolo IMO.

I know people happy with it.

I remember a month ago I was comparing a basic coping cut on both the DWX-50 and iMes 340i, I set the margin line offset in 3shape to .20mm and the 340I gave me a much thinner margin line compared to the DWX-50. Well no matter what I did I would always get a thinner margin line on the 340I not that it was chipping it was just thinner, well the 340I is about 3/4 if not more accurate over the DWX-50. I think the 50 Roland was around 20micron on accuracy and the 340i was like 3microns if I recall correctly, not 100% sure.

So if your margin line is set to .10 then that too could be the issue, try cutting a .20mm on the margin line offset and see what happens, each mill will not cut the same.