Porcelain tears vita vm13

[jbanet1965]

has anyone had trouble with tearing and lifting at the margins with vita vm13. just started using it and having problems with it. i have lowered entry temp and extended dry time also using a wet tray and putting crowns in wet any suggestions would be very helpful.

 

[charles007]

Wish I could help but having the same problems.....Try the new Vita RS Modeling liq. Maybe it will help, or not ? Saw the new liquid in Chicago, haven't ordered yet.
My main problem, I'm not using it everyday....use only on 3D shades.

Tap once before you place on firing peg, so its wet for sure....."Moisture is the key." Try a lower low temp under 500C. Was told by Vita to fire wet, shorter dry time, at a lower low temp.
I've tried firing wet, lower temp, longer dry time, shorter dry time, different liquids, without seeing much difference....My greatest help, is being consistent on how wet I fire my bis-bake. Wetter is better.
Many porcelains have much less tearing or no tearing using distilled water only. Second choice, dilute your modeling liquid with dist. water.

Good luck and keep me posted.

Charles

 

[user name]

Thats not my porc., but why the wet thing. Shouldnt it be slightly vibrated and blotted? I can see by not blotting theyre trying to make sure youre not over-blotting and pulling the porc. away from the opaque. Even when all goes well, does that appear to be a high shrinkage porc?

 

[paulg100]

had nothing but problems when i used VM13, including the tearing problems you mention. After 6 months i switched to in-line and the vita kit is now collecting dust.

Not sure what the rep of this ceramic is in the US but in the UK most people i have spoken dont have a good word to say about it. VM9 is ok but 13 is naff.

 

[Toast]

Wish I could help but having the same
Many porcelains have much less tearing or no tearing using distilled water only.
Charles

Charles, I use d.sign but have also been having tearing and shrinking issues with the porcelain, especially since I've been building my anatomy with a brush instead of cutting it with 557s ( I want to be like Al.). So I read your post this morning and figured what the hell, I'll give distilled water a shot. I cleaned up my smileline wet tray and filled it with straight dist. water. The porc. was much easier to work with, not slumpy like it can be with d.sign liquid. I've used straight dist. water with the Tropical tray before and it was pretty runny, maybe the smileline tray controls the moisture better. Best of all I actually had contacts after my 1st bake and min. tearing on the occ. which is exactly what I want. Sure is a lot cheaper than that d.sign liquid, they're proud of that stuff. Thanks for the tip.

 

[charles007]

Toast, thank you for the tip with the trays.....you may have helped a lot of dsign users here on DLN ..... I've given up on dsign for the second time in about 5 years because of the pulling at the margins......... Its been years since I've used the Line type of trays, may give it another shot.
Using distilled water is nothing new...... Modeling liquids help with the slumping with side effects, more so with some brands of porcelains. Many old timers still use water, not me though.....

Toast, are you saying the line trays work better than Renferts Tropical trays with water ? how do they compare using modeling liqs in both trays ?

Charles

 

[Toast]

Toast, are you saying the line trays work better than Renferts Tropical trays with water ? how do they compare using modeling liqs in both trays ?

Charles

Personally I think so. If memory serves me I would fill the reservoir of the tropical tray with dist. water and add modeling liq. from the top, res. was way to big to fill with mod. liq. I think the membrane on the smileline tray regulates the amount of moisture going to the porcelain better. The dsign liq is the only liq I've found that was half way decent with dsign proc. in the SL tray. I've tried the smileline liq. and the bredent (blue) liq and both made the porc so runny it spread out into a thin blob on the membrane. I think most of those type liqs. are designed for larger grained porcs. though.

 

[jbanet1965]

Thanks for all of your responses we had training with a Vident rep. I think we have the problem solved we lowered the entry temp to 400 extended dry time to 10 min. Also we released vac. and held 1 min with no vac before i was holding 1 min under vac. The other trick was to spray the build up with distilled water out of a fine mist spray bottle until the porcelain had a wet sheen look to it. With these changes the vm13 is coming out very nice.

 

[sixonice]

Seems like alot of extra work? Misting build-ups would annoy me and the 10 minute dry time would bottleneck production badly I would think. I guess if the company told me before I bought and it was OK by me, then I wouldn't mind, but this all after the fact would anger me.

 

[charles007]

Thanks for all of your responses we had training with a Vident rep. I think we have the problem solved we lowered the entry temp to 400 extended dry time to 10 min. Also we released vac. and held 1 min with no vac before i was holding 1 min under vac. The other trick was to spray the build up with distilled water out of a fine mist spray bottle until the porcelain had a wet sheen look to it. With these changes the vm13 is coming out very nice.

I tried at 450C, and with a 8min dry on singles without seeing much difference. Will try 400 with 10 min dry......
Even though it may not seem clear in the VM13 manual, there is no 1 min. hold under vac. Air fire one minute at high temp like many porcelains. Vita's manuals have always been printed that way.

On spraying, did you mean to spray after adding contacts and ready to place on firing peg..
Please post clear directions on this technique .
Thanks

 

[jbanet1965]

yes, mist after contacts have been added when crowns are on the peg mist until you see a light sheen of water on the surface.

 

[paulg100]

do you really feal that you should have to be mucking about so much to get productive and predictable results from your ceramic??

vm13 was the most problematic ceramic i think ive used in 20 years.
this stuff tears horrible in fissures even on single units, let alone bridge work.

mabey you need the 3d shades or you are using vm9 for zirconia so are trying to stick with the same colour system across metal/all-ceramics?

if not then why not switch to something that works without any fuss and save your self the headache?

spraying with mist!?!, faffing about with dry times!?! what the hell vita!?! 95 and omega were great, what happened.

 

[CRWNMKR]

vm 13 works great for me ,I fire per directions and use the vac 40t furnace

 

[sixonice]

do you really feal that you should have to be mucking about so much to get productive and predictable results from your ceramic??

vm13 was the most problematic ceramic i think ive used in 20 years.
this stuff tears horrible in fissures even on single units, let alone bridge work.

mabey you need the 3d shades or you are using vm9 for zirconia so are trying to stick with the same colour system across metal/all-ceramics?

if not then why not switch to something that works without any fuss and save your self the headache?

spraying with mist!?!, faffing about with dry times!?! what the hell vita!?! 95 and omega were great, what happened.

I agree with you. time IS money and chasing tears half the day is seriously denting ones profitability. there are many other porcelains out in the market today that can give predictable, reliable firing results. i posted earlier in this post that is seemed like alot of extra work.

 

[charles007]

vm 13 works great for me ,I fire per directions and use the vac 40t furnace

Please give us some "detailed steps" and techniques in your build-up. Start with the brand of liquid ?, how wet you build, wet trays? how you blot and condense during the build up, and after you add your contacts. Do you place on tissue or not and time,,,,,, I'm sure you don't.
Please also give your firing temps, dry times etc .....
My main problem is the pulling at margins in spots, and sometimes a slight tear on the buccal on posteriors. No occlusal tearing.

Charles

 

[wolfbear]

vm13 tears

Our lab has experienced the same problems with VM13 porcelain. Lifting at the margins, occlusal tears and hard to fill interproximals on bridgework.

Vident sent a ceramist to our lab with their furnace and couldn't solve the problem. It's a production killer.

We are currently switching porcelain systems.

 

[charles007]

Our lab has experienced the same problems with VM13 porcelain. Lifting at the margins, occlusal tears and hard to fill interproximals on bridgework.

Vident sent a ceramist to our lab with their furnace and couldn't solve the problem. It's a production killer.

We are currently switching porcelain systems.

Before you throw out the vm13.... order the RS liquid. I finally ordered the liquid an haven't had a 3D shade to come in yet.......Was told again several weeks ago that the RS should help with the tearing......

I'm now using Halo.....and just received one shade in the New Shofu Vintage MP today, which is suppose to be improved over the Halo..can be mixed with Halo for Halo users. Halo paste opaque sucks.......Was told the MP paste is better.
Anyway,,,,, I can say that Halo doesn't tear! when using a line tray or glass slab with water....but tears with dsign for me. Halo also tears some using their modeling liquid ! only fired one with that liquid....
Adding to bridges with Halo, a walk in the park.......one add-on and ready to glaze...no fooling !
All the years of porcelain tearing and pulling at the margins !! just want to scream!!!!!!!
I'm not trying to sell Shofu products, but will say if your like me, and tired of porcelain pulling at the margins, ask Shofu to send you a trail kit......

Charles

 

[wolfbear]

Rs liquid does not solve the problem.

 

[wolfbear]

paulg100 you are spot on in regard to vm13. Good post. I'm a 20 year ceramist and this is the most problematic material I've come across.

 

[sixonice]

pretty much all the major ceramic manufacturers will hook you up with a trial kit at no charge. there has to be a couple porcelains that you have interest in, so try a couple until you find one that you really like. there are several really good esthetic porcelains out there that will not give you the major problems your experiencing. consider it a good thing perhaps? that VM13 is probably the most expensive glass on the market right now & personally i think it takes alot of work to make the glass look esthetic.