Large Lab machines vs Milling center machines

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dbas

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Hello!

Do you know what are the technical & application differences between a milling machine for a large lab like a Imes750i/ YenaD40 and a machine for a large milling center like a DMG MORi D20 or a Rôders RCX?

Thanks
 
cadfan

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Different position accuracy, different span sometimes, different measure and control tools , different struccture
 
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Different position accuracy, different span sometimes, different measure and control tools , different struccture

Thanks for your answer!

I wanted to understand more about the difference, in term of production (fields of products and quantity),between a milling centre with specific dental machines and a centre with these heavy machines dedicated to manufacture dental products...How they compete each other and do they compete with?
 
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Thanks for your answer!

I wanted to understand more about the difference, in term of production (fields of products and quantity),between a milling centre with specific dental machines and a centre with these heavy machines dedicated to manufacture dental products...How they compete each other and do they compete with?

My thinking is related to the market...As we can see an increase in the quality and the range of applications of large "in-lab machines" (Yenadent, Datron),for which purpose the common large milling machine (Roeders/Haas) are still irrepleacable? Mass production ?
 
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The big one like Röder, Primacon,DMU, and so on are in a range of 5 my and the primacon 2.5 Kern, Makino , Kugler down to 1 my on the workpeace
Datron linear is 5 plus minus 2 you must understand what is behind a yenadent and normal datron is around 10 my plus minus your work tool is produced with plus minus 10 my a normal span has calibrated 5 my run out with hsk 25 you have max run out 3 my at the tool but that helps you nothing if you dont measure the tool for the cam and so on. If you run a maschine 2 -3 hour a day its crap thermal expansion !!! if a small mill runs warm for 10-15 minutes your tool ( spindel) is 15-20 my longer because of that. As long as you make normal things and no big screwed implant cases everything is fine but than its like making ceramic crowns one is more talented than the other and understands the mill better but if you want to make things in constant quality on the implant level some things are a must.

By the way a small joke i talked a few month ago with a engineer about his mill about the biggest problem,he said that the doors switch is broken and you have your head in the mill hes to fast for you.
 
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CoolHandLuke

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"labs" arent the kind of people to buy DMU/DMG20. those are bought by companies producing their own implant parts. so unless you are developing your own brand of implant complete with interface, ti base, custom scan body, etc. then working on the DMG may not be for you.

you got to need to produce a lot of very small, intricate parts out of a list of materials as long as your arm.

DMG milling is also pretty old school. it can't be run by just anyone with simple tools like the DWX50 Vpanel. its a lot more complicated.
 
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OK, the business is not the same. I got it but last question: Do you thing that the increasing of in-lab manufacturing technology is a threat for major companies (ex: Straumann) or it is a way for them to reach new customers? to create new services...
 
CoolHandLuke

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lol no its not a threat at all.

lab based machines are dumbed down a long way, made to be very automated, and are only designed to handle specific applications.

the only threat to companies like straumann is advancement in implants that are both open source, free to develop, and easy to produce.

however as we all know those kinds of words will not fly well in medical applications. things need certifications, labels, and stickers with approvals. and thats a great thing because it means we lab rats don't face patient lawsuits the same way doctors and dentists do. we can keep above board and be protected for life.

with developing your own brands theres a way to do it that doesnt involve creating products new to the industry; you can create a brand name and logo and stamp it on everything from the product you sell to the salesperson selling it. i recently got a golf shirt and fall jacket with our logo on it. i wear it to sales calls.

getting off track here...

the big DMG machines arent the ones mass producing the thousands of implants that get placed per year; no those are made in a much different environment. but a company like straumann would buy and use that kind of machine not to grind 98mm discs but develop all the proprietary holders and material blocks for a new kind of material. so for example the Cerec people might have used a DMG to mill the first few material blocks and holders for the initial run of emax. it might have done this 5, 6, 7 times in various iterations, reducing cost and time and creating streamlines at each iteration.

thats what you use the DMG for.

not making a metric ton of crowns.
 
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The great companies have problems on every corner starts a mill center and if you want to make big implant cases just buy a big mill and do it. These big implant cases are only a very small part . Ill think we see a lot of them fail , every lab can buy for example a yenadent D 15 you make 90 up to 100 percent inhouse incl. abutments only big screwed implant cases go out how much of that you have ??? If you have the work its yours either from dr or lab. Inhouse is the future a lot of mill centers will fail the only thing that changes is the access for the doctors via internet and for that you need maybe another marketing strategies but at the end counts your quality. By the way Straumann, Camlog uses although preforms and by the way Medentika bought by Straumann makes more money than Straumann self with millproducts for less than half.
 
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lol no its not a threat at all.

lab based machines are dumbed down a long way, made to be very automated, and are only designed to handle specific applications.

the only threat to companies like straumann is advancement in implants that are both open source, free to develop, and easy to produce.

however as we all know those kinds of words will not fly well in medical applications. things need certifications, labels, and stickers with approvals. and thats a great thing because it means we lab rats don't face patient lawsuits the same way doctors and dentists do. we can keep above board and be protected for life.

with developing your own brands theres a way to do it that doesnt involve creating products new to the industry; you can create a brand name and logo and stamp it on everything from the product you sell to the salesperson selling it. i recently got a golf shirt and fall jacket with our logo on it. i wear it to sales calls.

getting off track here...

the big DMG machines arent the ones mass producing the thousands of implants that get placed per year; no those are made in a much different environment. but a company like straumann would buy and use that kind of machine not to grind 98mm discs but develop all the proprietary holders and material blocks for a new kind of material. so for example the Cerec people might have used a DMG to mill the first few material blocks and holders for the initial run of emax. it might have done this 5, 6, 7 times in various iterations, reducing cost and time and creating streamlines at each iteration.

thats what you use the DMG for.

not making a metric ton of crowns.

I want to better understand the workflow of this market and you are helping me...thanks again and sorry for my ignorance.

But I would like to know then what kind of machines are producting these thousands of implants? In other words, if I go to Straumann or Biomet facilities, what will I see?
 
cadfan

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I want to better understand the workflow of this market and you are helping me...thanks again and sorry for my ignorance.

But I would like to know then what kind of machines are producting these thousands of implants? In other words, if I go to Straumann or Biomet facilities, what will I see?


rotary milling machines 7-8 axis but its different to make unique parts like dental or mass production like implants and standard abutments these are two shoes.
 
REJ

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There is not really a definitive line as to what is industrial vs dental, and what they can or cannot excel in producing. For example Datron, and Imes make the same basic machines for dental and industry. In general the thousands of parts at a time are done on a swiss machine like above which can make stock parts very quickly but is rather cumbersome for custom parts. For comparison a part like an abutment may take 2 minutes on a swiss for knockout times but a lot of setup and programming to where it is not feasible to run less than 100 at once. Same part on an Imes, Datron, DMG, Roeders, Etc would be more like 30 minutes but for one of something it is faster. Most of what are dental systems are a machine with the programming, software, fixtures and integration so that a dental technician that is not a machinist or engineer can get parts in a user friendly way.
 
CoolHandLuke

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Most of what are dental systems are a machine with the programming, software, fixtures and integration so that a dental technician that is not a machinist or engineer can get parts in a user friendly way.
thats precisely what i was referring to when i said our machines are dumbed down.

we can't get bogged down in being machinists. we don't have time. so we have dedicated special software.
 
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There is not really a definitive line as to what is industrial vs dental, and what they can or cannot excel in producing. For example Datron, and Imes make the same basic machines for dental and industry. In general the thousands of parts at a time are done on a swiss machine like above which can make stock parts very quickly but is rather cumbersome for custom parts. For comparison a part like an abutment may take 2 minutes on a swiss for knockout times but a lot of setup and programming to where it is not feasible to run less than 100 at once. Same part on an Imes, Datron, DMG, Roeders, Etc would be more like 30 minutes but for one of something it is faster. Most of what are dental systems are a machine with the programming, software, fixtures and integration so that a dental technician that is not a machinist or engineer can get parts in a user friendly way.

I can cleary see now for which purpose "swiss machines" are used the most in the workflow. Thank you!

But, can we say then that without taking implants manufacturing in consideration (video),swiss machines manufacturing are losing shares in the dental sector? My goal is to understand if the Dental implant market is a good opportunity for "swiss machine" manufacturers. Is it today a good option to transform a large machine dedicated normally for others sectors (Energy, Aerospace,...) into one specific for dental as DMG did.

If we see in the future a consolidation of the milling center business, will they be more interested in that kind of dedicated swiss machines following growing production?
 
cadfan

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Camlog use german star maybe in the past swiss made was in producing small parts the best because of their watch industrie below the straumann mills by german chiron but you although find these maschines in swiss ,japan and maybe a few more

http://www.straumann.de/de/dentaler...cam/cares-cadcam-system/Fraestechnologie.html

Dental is only a small small part of the world and DMG build these mill not only for dental its especially for ceramic parts ( industrial ) the best .

http://www.makino.com/about/news/makino-releases-iq300-precision-micromachining-center-/77/

for example from japan and this is not their dental one dental needs not that precision
 

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CoolHandLuke

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in my opinion larger machines do have a place for manufacturing our products, but it is steadily dwindling due to the advancing 3d printing market, and the stem cell scaffolding developments in medical technology.
 
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Do you have know what are the largest milling centers in the US? In Europe, I have identified large milling centers which invested in large "swiss machine" as they produced an important quantity of "hard" dental part. My will now is to understand when are you big enough to invest in that kind of machine. I would say that DMG, Chiron, Roeders, Haas, Witech and Willemin are the most common brands (of these Big machines) in dental sector. Am I right?
 
CoolHandLuke

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the biggest milling center in USA? hard to say at this point. 10 years ago it was a war between glidewell and aurum (vegas) for national brand recognition. as a former employee of aurum i know they invested a lot of money into their mills and employ two (!) DMG and is very possible they have grown since.

but now there are tons of milling centers all over the place all vying for the same work. that and the added component of 3d resin printing becoming pretty normal... to definitively nail down the largest among so many, that is a tricky thing to do without further refining the parameters of definition.

however

because i know you are looking for an implant part manufacturer, i can safely conclude that Abutment Direct are probably the biggest importer, because all of their parts are made in germany.

but lets answer your question with more clarity: you asked "when are you big enough to invest in that kind of machine"

clearly the only answer is "when nothing else will do"

several labs employ a haas in home-engineered implant bar solution, because they manufacture so many of them they require a machine capable of high speed and high reliability in machining titanium and cocr.

so if you requires a continuous supply of custom titanium parts, then a larger machine may be up your alley.
 
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the biggest milling center in USA? hard to say at this point. 10 years ago it was a war between glidewell and aurum (vegas) for national brand recognition. as a former employee of aurum i know they invested a lot of money into their mills and employ two (!) DMG and is very possible they have grown since.

but now there are tons of milling centers all over the place all vying for the same work. that and the added component of 3d resin printing becoming pretty normal... to definitively nail down the largest among so many, that is a tricky thing to do without further refining the parameters of definition.

however

because i know you are looking for an implant part manufacturer, i can safely conclude that Abutment Direct are probably the biggest importer, because all of their parts are made in germany.

but lets answer your question with more clarity: you asked "when are you big enough to invest in that kind of machine"

clearly the only answer is "when nothing else will do"

several labs employ a haas in home-engineered implant bar solution, because they manufacture so many of them they require a machine capable of high speed and high reliability in machining titanium and cocr.

so if you requires a continuous supply of custom titanium parts, then a larger machine may be up your alley.

In fact, I am more interested about the potential sales for "Swiss Machines" in Dental implants market, in medium or larger milling centers. I have naviguated on the forum and I only saw a couple of guys who has a machine like a DMG (trucrown, sunrise dental) but no acquisition in the recent years. Maybe because there are new players (Imes, Datron, Yenadent) with machines good enough to do the job or, as you said, because there are tons of milling centers so division of the production. I also understand now that swiss machines are relevant most of time for Ti, Cocr...bar, suprastructure solutions, implants manufacturing. Do you think that we will see a consolidation of the market in the future...so fewer milling centers with a return of "larger production" and then a potential need of larger machine with CAD-Technicians?
 
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