Formula 1 + Emax press issue

[finnster68]

Hi guys

Just started using Formula 1 investment for my Emax press and am not liking the results much.

I have attached a photo as to how the pressings are coming out.

Seems to be full of tiny bubbles and a thickish reaction layer.

I can eventually blast it all off and the pressings still fit fine but it takes quite a while to remove and i think its a matter of time before i blast of a margin or two to smithereens.

I mix for 2 mins at 350rpm, bench cure for 15, then into burnout furnace at 850 for 30 mins.

From there straight into the EP3000.

I must be missing something? I was using the IPS PressVest and it was clean as a whistle compared to these results.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated

Tony

 

[TheLabGuy]

A reaction layer like that can only mean one thing......your press oven is way too hot. Try doing a test case but lower your high temp on your oven 10 degrees each time and you will see that reaction layer disappear.

 

[finnster68]

Thanks for the respone Rob.

I never had any dramas with the pressing furnace being too hot before so never really thought of that. I guess using Ivoclars investment + frunace everything was set at the right temps already.

Will do a test case and drop it 10 this morning and see what happens



Tony

 

[aidihra]

I agree, it looks like the temp is too high.

 

[charles007]

Tony, calibrate your ovens first, burnout also, then you will know just how far off your press furnace is. That may save you from dropping 10 several times.........

Charles

 

[finnster68]

Do you guys pull the ring out immediately after it has pressed, or do you allow it to cool down first under the warmth of th furnace?.

I know the PressVest says you should pull it out immediatly to reduce the reaction layer, but others have said doing that can cause possible fractures due to the ring cooling so quickly

 

[finnster68]

Just an update.

I dropped pressing temp from 915 to 905.

End result, The pressing was way better with only a minimal reaction layer and the small air bubbles that i was getting were virtually eliminated, only problem was it didnt press to one area of the margin so it was a little short in that one spot.

Ended up trying one other, this time dropping temp 20 deg to 855. Didnt press at all, not even the sprues lol.

So now do i stick with the 10 degrees less and hope the next few do press

 

[sixonice]

My question is this: If you had good clean pressing with the e.max Press Vest investment, why did you change? Why not use the investment that you know works well and that the company has tested? Saving $.25 a bag or whatever the Formula 1 is would not even be worth it.
Also, if you are using a EP3000, and if it is calibrated (which I am sure it is because the press TELLS YOU when it needs a calibration) dropping the high temperature is not a good thing. Keep it where it was to eliminate the short pressings. FOoling around with the temps is causing you to waste ingots which are far more expensive than the investment.
You should also pull the ring out immediately after it is finished pressing and place it on the honeycomb cooling rack they provide. Do not let the ring cool on the staging platform on the press.

 

[TheLabGuy]

I'd go with 5 degrees lower and try that.

 

[finnster68]

Six

My reason for changing investment was indeed the price.

Here in Australia the IPS PressVest speed investment + liquid costs me $292.88 for a box of 25 x 100g bags delivered.

That equates to $11.71 per 100g bag.


Formula 1 costs $296.18 for 100 x 100g bags
Thats only $2.96 per bag


Fair difference in price, hence my reason to at least try another investment material.

I am about to press another 3 with only a 5 degree drop

 

[charles007]

Do you guys pull the ring out immediately after it has pressed, or do you allow it to cool down first under the warmth of th furnace?.

I know the PressVest says you should pull it out immediatly to reduce the reaction layer, but others have said doing that can cause possible fractures due to the ring cooling so quickly

Remove hot ring and place on the cooling grid rack that now comes with the ep3000-5000, until ring reaches room temp, aprox 1 hour. This is straight out of the emax press manual.....

 

[charles007]

Tony
I use Microstar HS investment on all of my casting, ceramic or type 3 gold and get fewer bubbles and better fits than any other investment that I've ever used and I've tried almost everyone on the market.....
No way in hell will I use it with emax when I'm getting excellent pressing with PressVest Speed . The one time I had problems is when I used a debubblizer, thats a no no !!
I don't have the experience that others have with emax, but what I have learned is, follow every direction in the manual to a T..

 

[bdg]

I mix for 2 mins at 350rpm, bench cure for 15, then into burnout furnace at 850 for 30 mins.

We use Formula 1 for everything except Type III
The 2 minute mix time is a must w/ it.
But when we are pressing - I let it bench set for 30 min (Seems to help w/ the bubbles)
Go into a cold oven and take it up to 1565 F for Esthetic - not sure of the temp for eMax off the top of my head.

If Im not mistaken the speed investment is the only one that goes into a hot oven.
I would leave the temps at what the manual says and try the cold oven.

 

[TheLabGuy]

I agree with bdg as well, let it bench set for 30 minutes and try the cold oven with the 5 to 7 temperature degree change and I think you'll be off to the races.

I know some of you are having trouble with Formula 1 investment for all-ceramics. It's like anything folks, you have to play with it and do some testing on it before you've worked out all the kinks. If you have the time the price will save you quite a bit of money. It took me about 3 weeks to work out the kinks but then again I'm lazy. Now everything runs smooth as butter. I had to work out the kinks because I was using a Whip Mix Pro Press 100 (3,500) along with Formula 1 investment from the get go so it did take me awhile, but look at how much money I saved and continually save.....

 

[Al.]

30 min burnout time? Isnt it supposed to be 1 hr + 10 min per extra ring?
If you put several rings in the furnace 30 minutes dosent seem like enough time for a complete burnout?

I didnt get as consistant results with the speed investment as the reg investment, so I stick with the reg. It is a 5 hour burnout but I put my rings in the furnace over night and set it to start pressing at 7 am.

 

[TheLabGuy]

30 min burnout time?

I start pressing at 7 am.

I think he said 30 min bench set, not burnout.....
In addition, 7am, you get up to early, way to frigging early.....I'm still dreaming about Jessica Alba at that time.....lol

 

[finnster68]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I will change to 30 min bench cure and go for the cold furnace.

Also i was only burning out for 30 mins for a single 100g ring. I will change that time to 1 hour as discussed.

Thanks again

 

[clearH2O]

Calibrate oven

Tony, calibrate your ovens first, burnout also, then you will know just how far off your press furnace is. That may save you from dropping 10 several times.........

Charles

Hi Charles, would you please explaining your calibration procedure of porcelain oven? One technician mention to buy a thermometer with probe to calibrate porcelain oven. As understand with this thermometer (up-dated ca libation 1/4, 1/2, or yearly) you have to place your probe closest to the oven heat sensor then turn your oven on. Compared reading from remote thermometer to the indicator of the oven will tell you how much off-set it needed to be adjusted.
Normally by moving the oven heating sensor allow the technician to calibrate these off set (+) or (-). With oven equip ts calibration pot in its system it is a little easier by just twisting this pot until you receive its closet reading with your calibrated remote thermometer.
I am not a porcelain oven technician but my prior career is an E/E industrial tech so by related the porcelain oven principal to industrial oven I think you and other tech on this forums can help all of us do it ourself to calibrate our equipment and save $$$.

thanks
clearH2O

 

[DMC]

Save money, ha! Not me! But here is some free internet info......


Thermocouple Color Codes and Thermocouple Reference

Use a thermocouple that best matches your high temp.......the resolution of the thermocouple reading (voltage) will have a sweet spot that you should be in the range of. I use "S" type in my Zirconia ovens for example. I'd guess you need an "N"

(scroll down to the yellow handheld units)
Calibration Equipment: Benchtop Furnaces

i also switch to a different one for drag racing reading EGT.
Also depends on the atmosphere and what gasses would be present.

My S Type is enclosed in an Alumina casing.

Ceramic Thermocouple Protection Tubes

Knock yourself out with calibrating stuff. Don't get too carried away. If it works, I'd leave it be.
I could be wrong here, just trying my best at guessing.

 

[charles007]

clearh2o
thermocouples and thermometers are over my head, I'm not a mad scientist.
I just use the calibration kit that comes with my furnace....After you calibrate, fire up some translucent porcelain til its clear...... Check with the company that you buy your porcelain from for help. This tip will give you the correct firing temp for any brand of porcelain.....