Dipping.

sndmn2

sndmn2

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#1
No, not skinny or Skole. I thought I would mess around with it a little. Are some stains easier to work with ? I have one fairly busy account, 30 crowns a month and everyone of their patients have the same shade A3/A2 so I thought I would start there. I see allot of discussions and there looks like there are plenty out there. Is it just a questions of learning to work with each brand or are some better than others ? Thanks
 
Brent Harvey

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Let me know when you have some time to talk and ill go over it with you over the phone. Much easier to do over the phone then explain though typing ha ha.
 
user name

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I think dipping is going the way of PFMs. There are nice preshaded materials available; why not use them?
 
Car 54

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I think dipping is going the way of PFMs. There are nice preshaded materials available; why not use them?
Agree, I need to start looking into that after I see what Origin comes up at Chicago with their preshaded gradient Beyond. It's so nice to mill, then go right to sinter, without the time it's taking me in dipping. Maybe more economical in 1 shade disc purchases for dipping, but the time and labor is probably where I'm losing the cost savings. Let alone the shades of liquid costs.
 
Patrick Coon

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I agree with the others chiming in here. Time saved and consistency would be a better savings with using a nice pre-shaded multilayer disk over dipping.
 
Tradewindj

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We have dipped and used the brush technique. We moved to pre-shaded Katana material and have never looked back. Huge time savings with consistent results and overall, a nicer product.
 
Bryce Hiller

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I think dipping is going the way of PFMs. There are nice preshaded materials available; why not use them?
I think for those who dip, it comes down to cost per unit. We've done the math for profit margin between pre-shaded pucks and white/dipped stains and the cost per unit, even when factoring in labor, is much lower with white zr. No constantly switching out shaded discs and nesting everything seperately. Everything can be milled on one disc. The staining takes very little time compared to what it takes for pre-shaded. Not to mention the pre-shaded discs are 2-3x more expensive. Just my .02.
 
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Car 54

Car 54

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I think for those who dip, it comes down to cost per unit. We've done the math or profit margin between pre-shaded pucks and white/dipped stains and the cost per unit, even when factoring in labor, is much lower with white zr. No constantly switching out shaded discs and nesting everything seperately. Everything can be milled on one disc. The staining takes very little time compared to what it takes for pre-shaded. Not to mention the pre-shaded discs are 2-3x more expensive. Just my .02.
Good point about the nesting, mill, disc change out times and that labor cost, if your'e doing more than the 30 A2-A3 crowns sandman is talking about. Spindle life also in being able to group all the units in a single disc with less bur change outs.
 
user name

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#12
I think for those who dip, it comes down to cost per unit. We've done the math for profit margin between pre-shaded pucks and white/dipped stains and the cost per unit, even when factoring in labor, is much lower with white zr. No constantly switching out shaded discs and nesting everything seperately. Everything can be milled on one disc. The staining takes very little time compared to what it takes for pre-shaded. Not to mention the pre-shaded discs are 2-3x more expensive. Just my .02.
I couldn't disagree more. I don't know what Zr youre using, and I know there are some cheap ones out there. That said, my goal is to get the best end result. Ive used lots of white and lots of multi layer pre colored. Hands down, the best results Ive achieved are with the pre colored. If youre going to color your own, then we have to compare dipping vs painting. There is no dipping that can compare with a carefully painted unit, and that's time consuming. So we're back to quality.


Now, price. I buy a lot of STML, and I have secured a great price. I can share in PM more details. I can switch out pucks and mill everything I need in pre coloreds faster than you can mill all in white and then color; granted, Im running more than one mill. Its nice to be running an A-2 puck in one mill and be flipping colors in the other.

So, with the price Im paying for what is generally regarded as the top shelf multi/pre, you are getting your whites for $40-50 a puck...and it looks good? I don't think so.
 
Bryce Hiller

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I couldn't disagree more. I don't know what Zr youre using, and I know there are some cheap ones out there. That said, my goal is to get the best end result. Ive used lots of white and lots of multi layer pre colored. Hands down, the best results Ive achieved are with the pre colored. If youre going to color your own, then we have to compare dipping vs painting. There is no dipping that can compare with a carefully painted unit, and that's time consuming. So we're back to quality.

So, with the price Im paying for what is generally regarded as the top shelf multi/pre, you are getting your whites for $40 a puck...and it looks good? I don't think so.

Now, price. I buy a lot of STML, and I have secured a great price. I can share in PM more details. I can switch out pucks and mill everything I need in pre coloreds faster than you can mill all in white and then color; granted, Im running more than one mill. Its nice to be running an A-2 puck in one mill and be flipping colors in the other.
Fair points, no doubt. Running multiple mills would definitely be beneficial for pre-shaded. We've been trying out Origin Beyond Plus zirconia. 1100 mpa and 47% translucency. It's very high quality. It's definitely not as low as 40 a puck, but it's not too far north of that either. While the STML looks fantastic, we've had some issues with it.
 
zero_zero

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#14
We're running 95% pre-shaded, wouldn't go back to the dipping method. Having said that, there are cases where we'd paint some stains to further characterize the crown, mostly anteriors.
 
Car 54

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Fair points, no doubt. Running multiple mills would definitely be beneficial for pre-shaded. We've been trying out Origin Beyond Plus zirconia. 1100 mpa and 47% translucency. It's very high quality. It's definitely not as low as 40 a puck, but it's not too far north of that either. While the STML looks fantastic, we've had some issues with it.
Beyond Plus, one of my favorites. Can fit more into a disc with its lower shrink rate, another benefit and cost savings.

With user name getting a better deal with his STML, not like most of us, so there is a cost difference to consider with multiple colors and thicknesses of discs with STML.
 
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TheLabGuy

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#16
We are 99% pre-shaded, can't stand dipping, painting, or whatever you want to call it this week. Now I wish more manufacturers would come out with some multi-shaded zirconium around the 1200 MPa strength range.
 
M

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Fair points, no doubt. Running multiple mills would definitely be beneficial for pre-shaded. We've been trying out Origin Beyond Plus zirconia. 1100 mpa and 47% translucency. It's very high quality. It's definitely not as low as 40 a puck, but it's not too far north of that either. While the STML looks fantastic, we've had some issues with it.
I would like to ask what issues you've had with the katana zirconia. I am interested in trying some new stuff, beyond plus and katana on my list. We do a lot of Argen HT+ and it looks very nice, but there are a few issues with cracking after they have sat on the bench that concerns me. We never had that issue with the previous versions of their zirconia.
 
user name

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#18
I would like to ask what issues you've had with the katana zirconia. I am interested in trying some new stuff, beyond plus and katana on my list. We do a lot of Argen HT+ and it looks very nice, but there are a few issues with cracking after they have sat on the bench that concerns me. We never had that issue with the previous versions of their zirconia.
If youre having cracking, others are likely too. make sure you the Argen. Maybe they have an updated sinter cycle to address the issue. Id consider slower heat rates, both up and down.
 
A

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#19
I dip and use pre-shaded too. If it is a crown, I paint them, so I can get the colour I want.
And we use the Ceramill Zolid FX Multilayer... LOVE it! You can buy it shaded (every disk has 2 shades),or you can buy just white and stain for yourself.
 
user name

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#20
Im just about all STML here. If you get a funky shade request...like a bridge I just did, C-1 inc, C-2 mid, C-3 cerv, Origin liquids work great with it. I use the 6.0 version in 70 strength. Just a slow damp brush stroke works well. Not too much.
 
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