Bubbles in e.max

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ejdent

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I feel like it is the reaction layer as well. I'm not discounting the other information. I will follow up with jensen today and am going to experiment with other waxes as well just to be thorough. I am also using the ivoclar investment as another trial.

Basically gonna use a chemistry lab style of experimentation technique
 
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New sandstorm coming friday with new polishing beads and aluminum oxide
 
TheLabGuy

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You have a cell phone?...take/post a picture. Then everyone will stop chasing their tail, including you!!!
 
NicelyMKV

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I used multiple milling waxes, PMMA and several brands of carving wax. Wax was never an issue for me as long as it burns out clean. Investment ratios can effect expansion and a that good stuff but the big issue I had with Emax in the beginning was simply not properly removing the reaction layer. My favorite wax right now is Yeti Thowax. I use beige Art. 710-0000. Really shows your details and burns out nice and clean. I do a thin 5 tenths( guesstimate from years of waxing) coping out of MDL blue so as I know how thick I am.
 
dmonwaxa

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You have a cell phone?...take/post a picture. Then everyone will stop chasing their tail, including you!!!

You're letting me down Rob, I can't believe you wanna stop chasing tails, thought that's what you're all about...hehehe
 
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I think it was the reaction layer in my case. Thanks for all the input
 
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eth700

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I think it was the reaction layer in my case. Thanks for all the input

I know this is an older topic but I'm curious how you figured this out? From what you could see, was the reaction layer being removed? Thanks
 
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Hello. I too have been getting cavernous bubbles in my pressings. I have gotten them while using the IPS PressVest Speed, HS Vest, and now with Galaxy 2. I am at a loss to what the cause is. I follow the instructions to the "T" in regards to spruing and investing, and have tried to get any insight as to the cause but am told the same thing. It's the investment. Well after 3 different investments, it has to be me, or the pressing unit. I tried all I can with me... Looking at the pics I sent, has anyone had this problem, if so, what is the cause? and what can I change to fix it? I use the EP 5000.


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Marcusthegladiator CDT

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6adapapu.jpg
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Hello. I too have been getting cavernous bubbles in my pressings. I have gotten them while using the IPS PressVest Speed, HS Vest, and now with Galaxy 2. I am at a loss to what the cause is. I follow the instructions to the "T" in regards to spruing and investing, and have tried to get any insight as to the cause but am told the same thing. It's the investment. Well after 3 different investments, it has to be me, or the pressing unit. I tried all I can with me... Looking at the pics I sent, has anyone had this problem, if so, what is the cause? and what can I change to fix it? I use the EP 5000.


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I think its time for a new diamond disc. That much we can be sure of, lmao.
 
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I have been using the Renfert Dynex brilliant discs and it does leave a residue. I got some samples of the larger discs, which I have been trying to use up. Normally I use the smaller discs. But I did switch to a new diamond separating disc after that one cut and I feel so much better for doing so. Any thoughts on the streaming bubbles? I'm thinking there are gases leaking out as the pressing takes place. But some rings will produce these bubbles and some won't. I even burn out longer then recommended just in case there is still something in the investment itself that needs to burn out. I'm really stumped on this and insecure about the quality of the product I am trying to put out.


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2thm8kr

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The first photo looks as though it may be an inclusion from the investment. Another thought, Is your furnace pump pulling full vacuum?
 
Marcusthegladiator CDT

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In the photo am I seeing little round voids made of investment inside the material itself?

So if that's the case, two things.

One- Contaminated wax. Keep your wax, your sprues, and even your waxing tips, very clean.
Two- Die lube... folks like to smother their dies in lube several times between dipping and finally sealing the margins. If there is a lot of lube it becomes voids in the shoulder. And since its just good science, they're perfectly round voids made up of bubbles of lube. Then when you invest, this investmen fills these little pockets where lube was. Keep your waxups adapted very well on the intaglio surface and blot all your lube with a tissue before dipping and/or sealing.

I'm thinking its two...
Usually contaminates are black/burnt, and most often get pressed into the margin.

So just start keeping everything, VERY REDICULOUSLY CLEAN, and ease up on the lube to avoid voids made of lube.

"Avoid voids."-Interesting

Anyway, I have tins of grey thowax that say, "KEEP CLEAN!" But people still leave them open and even grind on things at the same bench. So I have to scrap it and buy another. Gota gota gota keep it clean...

Besides the photos someone on this thread was having issues with bubbles while layering ceram.
It's not necessary, but since they are having issues, I would suggest using Acid to remove the reaction layer as well as a good sand blasting...
Ivoclaire sells "Emax Invex Liquid." A diluted hydrofluoric acid you can use to ultrasonic that layer off.
Even if it looks like you've blasted it all off, its sometimes still there. And you can see it when you acid wash it and you'll say, "hey marc was right, look at that, it IS still there."
 
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M. Brian.

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Actually when I first started having this problem, I too thought it was investment but when digging out these bubbles, I found it to be that color because of the bubbles themselves. And in trying to chase these bubbles, there was no end accept the garbage can. Believe it or not, there is no investment in the bubbles in these pics. Sorry, I can't seem to get better resolution from my iPhone 4S.


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I will check out the vacuum. If it were not pulling full vacuum I thought these new EP 5000 would send out an alarm. The slightly older models do. But I'll have a test of it. Thanks for the suggestion.


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2thm8kr

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M. Brian. said:
Actually when I first started having this problem, I too thought it was investment but when digging out these bubbles, I found it to be that color because of the bubbles themselves. And in trying to chase these bubbles, there was no end accept the garbage can. Believe it or not, there is no investment in the bubbles in these pics. Sorry, I can't seem to get better resolution from my iPhone 4S.


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When devesting is there a barrier of pressed material over the void? Most bubbles will be round rather than jagged.
 
Marcusthegladiator CDT

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Actually when I first started having this problem, I too thought it was investment but when digging out these bubbles, I found it to be that color because of the bubbles themselves. And in trying to chase these bubbles, there was no end accept the garbage can. Believe it or not, there is no investment in the bubbles in these pics. Sorry, I can't seem to get better resolution from my iPhone 4S.


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They are just air bubbles? Yea, def check the vacuum and double check and recheck your burnout and rates. and double check, recheck your firing programs...
 
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M. Brian.

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Yeah they are just air bubbles. I'm not sure what is meant by "a barrier of pressed material over the void". When I defeat the crown everything on the surface of the porcelain is clean. But when I have these bubbles, they show up as wide bands or those long white strings as seen in this one pic, these bubbles start right at the base of the sprues. The rest of the unused ingot is bubble free.
eba6ysaq.jpg



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M. Brian.

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Yeah they are just air bubbles. I'm not sure what is meant by "a barrier of pressed material over the void". When I divest the crown everything on the surface of the porcelain is clean and smooth. But when I have these bubbles, they show up as wide white bands or those long white stringers. As seen in this new pic, these bubbles start right at the base of the sprues. The rest of the unused ingot is bubble free.


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2thm8kr

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Have you spoken with Ivoclar tech support? I would see what they have to say about this issue. Email the photos to who ever you are talking to.
Are your sprues less than 8mm in length?
 
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Make sure the end of your press rod in the oven is clean and not sticking to the plunger. Use disposable plungers. Use a clean die lube like Hi-tech and DONT use any wax pattern cleaner/debubbleizer. Don't leave your ring in the burnout more than an hour and double check its temp. Too hot will cause problems. 850 is recommended, but I like just a bit cooler. I use 845.
 

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