A fight with a lab owner sending his work to china.

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BillyB

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Rob, the USA used to have trade regulation and tariffs/taxes of foreign goods. The gutting of America's manufacturing sectors is the result of less government regulatory interference. No. I am not advocating communism for the USA. As you point out, if there is a trade war going on (and there is) we do need a defense and a response. Unfortunately, as I'm sure that you know, our politicians depend on the contributions they get from big well financed business groups and lobbying. I'm not talking about R's vs D's. That's our system. Its taken over both parties.

The trade tariff system the US used to employ during the US ascent to the top was based on a calculation of lost revenues (lost employee taxes, employer taxes, impact on unemployment stats, etc etc). This system pretty much evened out the price on the store shelf, so at that time consumers were buying based on quality of product - and during this time period US products ruled. Fair wages paid. Safe working conditions. No child labor. And the economy was sound and growing (the working middle class income, aka: median income was rising in relation to the cost of living). Plus everyone got soundly made US products.

Seriously. Everyone knows that American manufacturing can't compete with socialized and subsidized low cost (to manufacturers) labor. The cost of labor is also manipulated by currency valuation. China is manipulating its currency trading value to maximize the surplus trade value. Iow, for a wide variety of reasons, a Chinese labor hour costs less than a US labor hour, and corporations have set up private international trade groups (GAT, WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc etc) in order to arbitrage labor. "Free trade" is a mirage. Inter corporate tax free trade is more accurate, and these very nondemocratic corporations have set the rules of trade and their paid minions (our politicians) ratify these corporate arbitrage mechanisms. This has usurped our democratic system. We need to take it back. Our founding fathers (the Federalists and the Republics) are spinning in their graves right now. They theorized that overconcentration of wealth or corporate power would lead to a monetary (corporate) monarchy - much like the monied monarchies of Europe at that time. Hence they created a progressive taxation system, and the estate tax on the super rich, and limited rights of a corporation. They were right. Since the stripping away of the founding plan (especially the SCOTUS ruling on eternal corporate personage in the 1890's: all the rights of a citizen - eternally) we have been in a power struggle. People vs Corporations. Our founders created an economic system that we controlled, not the one that controls us now.

Where can I buy Made In The USA (by a US corporation) PFM ceramic?

on edit: Rob, like UPS and FEDEX, Densply doesn't make the $29 crowns. A Chinese lab does. Like UPS and FEDEX, Densply is the facilitator.


Cheers,
Billy
 
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Synovio

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American made shoes were the top drawer gear for generations a' pedestrians all over the world..(Europe mostly I think - but that was the world once upon a time not so long ago)
Now we find that the fixed restorations are goin' overseas like the shoes. Small Dental labs like mine are survivin', but work is way down..the big labs must really be hurtin'.

I don't like Asian countries cause they feed dogs to giant snakes. It should be t'other way around..Also, I still have nightmares of hearing David Hung singin'..

Bottom line is this: Everything changes..human endeavors are fueled by avarice an' treachery. Nobody remembers the ultimate sacrifices of the countless numbers of brave & noble Americans except on a few annual occasions. I'm a vet - an' I think every lawyer/politician oughta have served before he can be eligible to govern..but that's just me.

Oh ya - we need China..I don't think I can make it through life without Crab Rangoon..an' Peking dumplings..an' Won Ton soup..an'
 
DMC

DMC

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Billy, I'm pretty sure that Prident is owned by Dentsply and China together. That's the way you get into China. You have to let the Chinese govnt own at least 51% of your business, or something like that?


My 3M Lava mills were built in Germany, but the US (3M) ownes that company (ESPE),so technically it is not really Germany who gets the profit. I doubt they get much at all after the initial sale of the company.

Another great US company is 3D Systems.

Geomagics and Materialise are leading software companys that are US based I believe. Those companys had a roll in developing our Dental stuff.

You can build a 100% US lab if you really want and not go out of business.

I just buy the good stuff, which happens to be US made most of the time. You just got to look harder these days to find'em.
 
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rkm rdt

rkm rdt

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Hey Billybob,

Don't lump Canada into your diatribe bud. I out source my copings to New Jersey bud! You're the cheap foreign country to me with the low wages etc.

Protectionim my ass!
 
rkm rdt

rkm rdt

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Hey Billybob,

Don't lump Canada into your diatribe bud. I out source my copings to New Jersey bud! You're the cheap foreign country to me with the low wages etc.

Protectionism my ass!
 
TheLabGuy

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Billy-
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree about Dentsply, still a direct competitor and liar in my eyes........I'll let you have the last word on it.

As for Government's role.........in essence to what you are saying is that it's U.S. Corporations and Communist Governments fault?.......... I will totally go along with the fact that lobbying is poisoning our economical, political, and our American ideals. Either way, how do we fix it? in your opinion? You suggested we even out the playing field with tariffs.......... sounds simple, fast, and easy. Without some lobbying of our own, how do we do that? Which brings up another question.......who speaks for us? as a lab industry? I sure hope it isn't the NADL, they flat out told me to make a change or do something I should go through my state associations, and maybe that is the answer. To throw my jab at the NADL, when the 'fit hits the shan', the lead scare, they were all more than happy to speak up like they were our leaders in the industry, and what did that get us.....on the FDA's radar screen.......thanks NADL. So do we unite under the umbrella of state associations? and even if we do, what are we asking.......a tariff, maybe a permission to put up a billboard or run a tv commercial stating the dangers of using unsafe products to have your crowns/dentures made? It's my understanding, and correct me if i'm wrong, but the South African government told any lab technician if they sent offshore they would face jail.........and didn't the UK National Health make it illegal to ship offshore for dental lab work too? What would you do?

Now back to the FDA, because I don't think some here realize something........If you make a dental appliance in the U.S. or for the U.S. you have to be FDA compliant and have your FDA GMP's in hand when the FDA inspectors come knocking.......and they will....so do you? In addition, just something to stir the puddin', do you think a Dentist has to have to be FDA compliant if he was to say, ship directly offshore to have his crowns/dentures made?.........nope, Dentists are exempt. How about those apples?
 
TheLabGuy

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Hey Billybob,

Don't lump Canada into your diatribe bud. I out source my copings to New Jersey bud! You're the cheap foreign country to me with the low wages etc.

Protectionim my ass!

Give 'em hell rkm.......
I toughened him up some....:)

What is Canada doing about the off-shoring? I eluded to some things that other countries are doing, but I'm curious, is Canada addressing any issues or concerns? Can your Dentists send directly overseas? If my memory serves me correctly, you all have a provincial laws governing the dental technicians, would you mind giving us some insight?
 
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Synovio

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As for Dentsply - I remember the days before this company stabbed us all in the back an' told it they were just givin' us a "brisk" massage. Ya - that's fer real. The mucky-mucks who run this company now are not unlike the lawyer/politicians in our congress who are destroying American manufacturing and selling us all out - especially our honored dead from our current and all our past conflicts. And for what? For money..that's for what. It's for the bucks.

Dentsply makes great stuff - and they always took an active interest in training and support of American technicians. I've been to York for courses, as have many techs. I never would have believed the Dentsply group would sell us out to China for the bucks..and whatever else they might have gotton. The original principals of this once-trusted company would roll over in their graves if they saw how it all turned out.

I got a call from Dentsply askin' me if I needed any help from my new sales "rep" in the northeast. I told em' no, that I wouldn't be usin' their stuff no more..basically because their treachery has helped me decide to retire an' move to where the golf courses are open all year long..

I might take up ballroom dancin' too..cause I see some ol' farts on the TV shakin' their geriatric asses on "Dancin' with the Stars" - I guess I can still remember how ta' do the "Freddy"..

The payoff to this story is this: ANyone what wants ta argue that Dentsply didn't stab us in the back will likely say that Harry Reid an' Nancy & Barack
are helpin' our economy an' doin' what is right an' necessary for our own good cause we're too stoopid ta' know what's good fer us.

But I got a brand new headline fer em'..

Wait till November..
 
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kcdt

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You guys have short memories. Dentsply has always been out for themselves. Rmember the anti-trust suits brought because of their exclusionary practices in tooth lines? That crap was going on when i was a puppy.
 
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rebel dental lab

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Once someone sins to level of outsourcing to a 3rd world country they can damn near justify anything to themselves and those they do business with. Unfortunately the beating on us american labs has barely begun. When intraoral scanning hits the majority of Dentists, who knows where they will email off their work to. Keep up the good fight
 
kcdt

kcdt

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Once someone sins to level of outsourcing to a 3rd world country they can damn near justify anything to themselves and those they do business with. Unfortunately the beating on us american labs has barely begun. When intraoral scanning hits the majority of Dentists, who knows where they will email off their work to. Keep up the good fight

Actually that might be the death nell for offshore. If the costs of technology, production and end quality all become the same because of automation, then the only means of competition will be locality because of ship times.
Thus far the real edge offshore has is CHEAP labor. CAD CAM removes the human labor, and middle class wages are already slowing the chinese.
The problem we have is no one gave a rats ass until now we have no accredited schools, no young entry level workforce and a greying skilled workforce. We did that to ourselves playing the pricing war amongst ourselves until no one could afford to take this on as a career.

I do not send anything out but RPD frames, and mine are made in California, but I think its a little naive to just blame the current situation on the big bad foreigners. Its also quite likely that many of the good ones will wind up here looking for work with a skill and citizenship in a better place.... will they all be the enemy then?

I don't care for what the corporate types do either, but I think the situation is more complex than its being related.
 
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BillyB

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Hello

All that's needed is compliance.

Once all of the jobs are automated and globalized by multinational conglomerates to undemocratic totalitarian states, no one will need to make anything, no labor class incomes and manufacturer economy, and the über wealthy will own all, and control all, including the automated armies to keep the serf uprisings to a minimum with a shocking and awesome level of brutality.

Sounds like serfdom in a monarchy.

YouTube - The Shock Doctrine

Cheers
 
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rkm rdt

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"What is Canada doing about the off-shoring? I eluded to some things that other countries are doing, but I'm curious, is Canada addressing any issues or concerns?"

I'm not 100% sure about the other provinces, but in Ontario , Dentists must send to a lab supervised by an RDT.

I'm sure overseas outsourcing occurs but I don't think it is as huge an issue here.The difference is also that the patient pays the separate lab bill not the dentist.
 
TheLabGuy

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"What is Canada doing about the off-shoring? I eluded to some things that other countries are doing, but I'm curious, is Canada addressing any issues or concerns?"

I'm sure overseas outsourcing occurs but I don't think it is as huge an issue here.The difference is also that the patient pays the separate lab bill not the dentist.

Wow, how does that work if they don't pay it.....do you have to send them to collections, or does the Dentist collect your money for you? I've seen this here in the U.S. for some higher-end in-house technicians. Heck, one the guys I knew just got a Ducati (motorcycle) for a big case. Worked it out with the patient, where the patient signs over the title of the Ducati and the tech does all the work........fair trade in my book, then again, I may be bias, I own one...lol
 
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BillyB

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Hi

Most practitioners don't do this because they don't want their patients to know how inexpensive the lab work is (compared to the Dr's bill). Some patients can't figure out why the Dr charges 5 to 10 to 15 to 20 times the lab fee, since the restorations they brush every day are made by the lab, not the Dr.

In Florida a lab can't write the bill to the Pt. only to the Dr.

Now, IF a patient wants to drop off a case of beer in thanks for a job well done, I'm good with that!

Cheers
Billy
 
TheLabGuy

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Hi

IF a patient wants to drop off a case of beer in thanks for a job well done, I'm good with that!

Cheers
Billy

Just one case..........wow, we do need to toughen you up some... ;)
 
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BillyB

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Hi

Many years ago I was working in an in-office lab. A patient, a little old lady about 80yrs young, wanted some extra customization done to her porcelain work. I must've spent 3 hours with her changing her mind back and forth. I'd change the shade to her specs and then she'd want it changed back. Then the length. Back and forth. I eventually made her (and the Dr) happy.

After paying her bill at the front desk she insisted on coming back to the lab to thank me, and to give me a tip which I tried to refuse, thanking her for her offer. She insisted.

The tip?

http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/s/images/dollar.recto.jpg

Cheers
Billy
 
wwcanoer

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Over the years I've received several boxes of chocolate as a way of saying thank you, and a couple bottles of very good wine.

It is nice to be recognized, isn't it.
 
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Synovio

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I had a dentist give me two lobsters one time. Another time I got tickets to see Rodney Dangerfield in Atlantic City. (He was alive then so it wasn't like...macabre or anything..)

But in the last two decades I ain't got so much as a donut from these guys.

How many hours have you folks worked doin' remakes from new impressions that the chairside operators expected ta' get for free?

An' now they got cheap Chinese work an' slave robots ta' whack us over the head with.

So - all I can say is: Let's Go BRUINS!!!popcorn
 
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abc123

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NADL Prez???

Really???
The NADL president outsources to China??????:confused:
Kinda unpatriotic?????!!!!!
We buy U.S.
Manufacture U.S.
EVERYTHING inhouse, and we are very proud of that!!!!!
 
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