A fight with a lab owner sending his work to china.

[TheLabGuy]

I want to share this with all of you because most of you actually give a damn about this lead stuff and what you actually make. This is a conversation that i copy/pasted from over at DentalTown. The quotes from TheLabGuy are from me, and the quotes from TexasTom is a guy who outsources all his work to china.


Quote: (texastom)
The fact that the public is being informed is a good thing and it will bring about change in how offshore vendors conduct themselves when they sell to the American public. I know our offshore labs are doing it right but we are being painted with the same brush but even that in the long run will be a good thing. The pressure of American public opinion and the pressure of the offshore manufactures that do it right will cause the change that will bring to the American consumer and those of the world products that are safe and at prices that will allow many more to participate in purchasing consumer goods and services.


Quote: (TheLabGuy)
Tom you're such a good business man...............to bad you find it self-righteous and patriotic to do work with communists. Makes one ponder why your not posting in the business section of the Message Boards instead of where "REAL" Dental Technicians hang out......i.e. the Laboratory Section.


Quote: (texastom)
I'm a service connected disabled vet and I plan on being part of destroying communism without using a generation of our young as cannon fodder like this county did to us. Plus we still let the sob's win. Our system of capitalism will dismantle communism despite your brand of BS slowing the process.


Quote: (TheLabGuy)
My brand of BS, you and your business dealings in China are why we are talking about lead in the first place..........oh your a disabled veteran, so am I, so who gives a flying fornification. Tom all you amount to is an UNPATRIOTIC PROFITABLE SLUT to the dental industry, and that's that. If you really had a pair that amounted to anything you would take your dental knowledge (or the lack of) and TEACH wonderful Americans your trade, and not sell out to the lowest bidder to do the work you can't do. One word comes to mind to the likes of yourself, despicable.

Quote: (texastom)
Name calling on the Internet takes real a warrior. I read your profile. Was it pure hell in the dental lab on board ship? The real warriors are always the quiet unassuming guys. It's the warrior want to bes like you that are always thumping their chest and trying to ride the coattails of the guys that really went in harms way for this county. There is just no need to call you what all that read your words recognize that you are. Oh by the way I give money and belong to the DAV and not some crackpot lab site.

Quote: (TheLabGuy)
Oh Tom, if you only knew..............I will confess I did spend some time on a ship, the USS KittyHawk, one hell of a group of dedicated patriotic "warriors".......I just wished I could of spent more than 4 hours with them. As for you however, I stand by my words to you and every Dentist out there that does the same. I'm still wondering though, why don't you take the time teach people the dental industry. NOT the china connection, I'm talking about sitting down and teaching someone how to do dental laboratory work. Is it that hard, too lazy, hate america that much, rather sit back and collect the cash, to busy playing delivery boy? That question goes out to all you labs who send to china to do your work, I'm curious? I do it everyday to Legal American's and can't think of anything better to pass on to someone.........you should give it some thought.



Okay, maybe calling him a Slut was a little mean, but he still refuses to answer my question about teaching......go figure. I wonder if Travis would be willing to post a link on the main forum page that calls out all these labs that we know for certain are sending to China..........it is for the patients? And hey, let me know what you think about what I posted. I got broad shoulders I can take it.

 

[labdude]

Take him by the nose and kick him in the ass all you want. He needs it, but, it won't do much good. Except maybe your leg and hand will get stronger.
I'm just burned out on this type of person. I have escaped from the city to the country and spend less time with those types.
I find it more satisfying to share what I can when I can. The stuff I share will make it easier for a small lab, and most likely piss off larger ones. At least in orthodontics.
Share your abilities and smarts with those who will use it, point out ones like this guy once in a while when they crop up. Sometimes like weeds. There are more who will read what you post than you know of. The guy will become known for what he is doing.
Have a beer, put your feet up. You exposed another twit.
Mike.

 

[Travis]

I thought about having known labs and even dentists that use China posted on the site somewhere, but who's to say if they really do or not. I don't want any legal battles or lawsuits because of a lie.

What am I allowed to say?

 

[sixonice]

I loved what you had to say. Your are 100% dead-on.....this guy is in it for the cash, plain and simple. He is a "delivery boy", a milkman just driving his route, delivering his communist goods and crossing his fingers everything will go OK for him. His clients are just as guilty. They all know this stuff comes from China, they are just padding their own wallets. I did enjoy the fact he didn't have a reply about teaching and spreading lab technology to Americans.

 

[TheLabGuy]

I thought about having known labs and even dentists that use China posted on the site somewhere, but who's to say if they really do or not. I don't want any legal battles or lawsuits because of a lie.

What am I allowed to say?

The worse anyone can have done to you is have a cease/desist or injuction filed against you for that particular forum topic. And actually, they would file it against who owns your hosting/server, not particularly you. This is where things get fishy, as long as you're not the one saying the things, their is not much they can do but piss and moan about it. So as long as you personally don't post anything about anyone their isn't really a damn thing they can do about it......it's supposedly a free country. With that in mind, I would just make sure people are not bad mouthing each other and make sure they are sending to china to keep your credibility. Other than that, have at it, we got your back...............I think it's a wonderful idea and I'll even start it today.........NADL PRESIDENT (JOE GERACE) who owns/runs DSG (Dental Services Group) also, the largest privately owned dental laboratory corporation in the United States sends to China..............so far as I know, he does notify the Doctors that he is doing this........not that it makes it any better. Kind of hypocritical for NADL to be saying one thing when their current President is doing another....isn't it? Their Travis, that'll get you some attention, delete the whole post if you feel uncomfortable about it, you won't hurt my feelings.

 

[Travis]

texastom is a big name on that site. He didn't do very well in his argument.

You are very concise in your posts. Good job!

 

[TheLabGuy]

texastom is a big name on that site. He didn't do very well in his argument.

You are very concise in your posts. Good job!

Not hard to argue when you're in the right brother.......

You're right, he's a big name over there, but for some reason has yet to make a post since then.........go figure

 

[Travis]

NADL PRESIDENT (JOE GERACE) who owns/runs DSG (Dental Services Group) also, the largest privately owned dental laboratory corporation in the United States sends to China..............so far as I know, he does notify the Doctors that he is doing this........not that it makes it any better. Kind of hypocritical for NADL to be saying one thing when their current President is doing another....isn't it?

The NADL president Joe Gerace, does he run Dental Service Group? I read from the DSG website that Bob Ditta was the president.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Co-owners/operators

 

[Synovio]

What I wanna know is this..

How are greedy dentists and their outsourcin' "labs" gonna handle it when China moves on Taiwan & we go ta' blows with em'? It's definitely comin' - anyone who don't bleeve it is playin' ostrich..look at the massive military buildup the Chicoms have been doin' with all the cash we're handin' em'..they got subs an' all kindsa stuff now.. A war with China will go nuclear at some point - it must - There's too many of em' in uniform..If ya got roaches ya gotta call in the ORKIN man..so nukes will fly..then the net goes down from all the radiation & so does all the CAD/CAM programming & stuff..

That will leave only two things..

roaches and hand-crafted crowns..

Don't be fools - stick with PFM technology..Robots can't layer porcelain an' Chinamen are best at doin' laundry an' workin' in restaurants.

 

[DMC]

I can think of four different technologies that can layer porcelain just like a human. Maybe better! One will have the bottom half of a five axis mill to rotate the coping, and multiple printhead banks to spit out the different porcelains. Another uses nano-particles to diffract light to get colours and laser sintering to replace an oven. Another is similar to the ObJet from Isreal.
Mixing up to thirty buckets of stuff to print. Same for printing dentures.

Never say never! This will bring it all back to the US. Not much labor to save by sending it over-seas. A tech will still be needed for a while to do the design work, but a lot less of them. You just can't stop progress and technology.

The days of Chinese crowns are limited for a few reasons.

 

[BillyB]

Specious arguments.

Hello all.

This is my first post here.

I see a lot of anti commie and anti socialist talk in this thread.

I have to ask...

Who is using US made/owned porcelains here?
Who is using US made/owned porcelain furnaces here?
Who is using US made gypsum & stones and epoxies here?
Who is using US made/owned CAD/CAM systems here?

After spending some time browsing here I notice that most are using foreign made porcelains, ovens, equipment, etc. These European dental companies are joint ventures with their socialist governments. They have kicked the US manufacturers asses because of this advantage. Another advantage the foreign socialized dental companies have is this rubric known as "free trade". Their products are not taxed nor are there any tariffs on their cheap/subsidized labor. But they put tariffs on US made products. None of these companies pay for inflated private health care for their employees/themselves as we do in the USA. Much of the same applies to technical training in these socialized European countries.

The R&D costs of the Asian and European manufacturers is underwritten by their governments, and that is one reason why it is they who are on the vanguard of technology.

The US people and government have rejected this economic principle and we are now seeing the chickens come home to roost.

IMO, its kind of hypocritical to be complaining about socialist/communist China, while at the same time to be espousing the use of socialist/communist subsidized dental materials and equipment.

Your CAD/CAM unit is a little piece of German or Canadian or Austrian or Lichtenstein territory right in your own lab (or dental practice). Your dongle fees, license fees, ingot fees, etc etc, are going straight out of the US and into the socialist/commie coffers.

The job of any corporation is to maximize profits, and the US government has bowed to the corporate underwriting of US political campaigns, and untaxed/nontariffed outsourcing is the result. As this continues across the board in the US economy (the Walmartization of US consumerism) workers have made zero gains in income vs cost of living for over 30 years. Most Americans can only afford foreign subsidized products because of this, no matter how well made they are in the US, only the wealthiest percentile incomes will be able to afford US made. Like a leaf twirling down the drain, it spins faster and faster until it gets sucked down the drain.

We need to get back to the tax and tariff system we had from the 1930's to the 1980's to encourage US manufacturing - this is the system that made the USA the manufacturing powerhouse of the world. During those times the US was the economic powerhouse of the world. We made almost everything we used right here in the USA, and there was certainly no shortage of US millionaires back then. The US used to be the #1 exporter of finished goods and the #1 importer of raw materials - today it is exactly the reverse. Free trade, my ass. Now, due to the ending of our trade & tariff system and handing over our economy to undemocratic corporations, we have little choice but to buy socialistic and communist made products.

US capitalism (like the US dental lab industry) is now almost entirely dependent on foreign socialist/communist subsidization.

Live with it. Or change it. Is America a democracy, or a corporotocracy?

BTW, I had the Densply rep come by my lab and offer me a special deal for their customers (keep in mind that Densply is a foreign owned multinational corporation) - a China made PFM $29 including shipping (which means that UPS & FEDEX are cutting great deals to these China outsourcers to make it more profitable to kill our jobs).

What can Brown™ & FEDEX do for you? Ship your job to China overnight - and they'll handle all of the logistics.

Sorry about the rant/ I'm as POed as anyone, but I see it as much much more than simply a China problem.


to all.

Billy

 

[TheLabGuy]

It's a 'specious' argument to have a little pride in your country?.......wow, for your first post you know how to step in it don't you. Oh, I forgot, to you, I'm suppose to "Live with it".......well billyb....I'm very proud to be Anti-Socialist, and Anti-Communist.......I can't believe in todays world we as Americans have forgotten how and why so much blood, sweat, and tears was spent forming our great nation........ Would you like a history lesson BillyB, it appears you have forgotten? Better yet, I don't have the time to speak to appeasers....... "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." ~Winston Churchill

 

[TheLabGuy]

Furthermore....
Don't come on a forum and start your first thread out by bagging on other members because they reserve the right do work with companies that care about the dollar more than there customers....(i.e. Dentsply) Speaking of Dentsply, they said they wouldn't advertise to the Dentists when they started Prident, but how long did that last......so now they are liars and competitors that are trying to sell $29 PFM's directly to your clients on a daily basis...........and you let them in your lab. That right there should speak volumes about your character right there. This isn't about who's right or who's wrong, it's about who you want to business with and what they mean to your business. I prefer to do business with honorable folks and companies that care about there customers...........i.e. Whip Mix, the little suppliers such as Nowak Dental Supply, and Harris Discount Supply.....and the list goes on of the small guys making a patriotic difference. Now will you be able to completely eliminate purchasing something from the communist countries and companies that are also your competitors......almost impossible, but I sure in the hell can put a severe dent in any sales with them. I'm sick and tired of folks saying you can't stop them, you have to be on board, you have no choice, don't you shop at Walmart...........I call BS, we can all do our little part to make a change, teach an American how to do that flipper, instead of shipping it off to some sweat shop overseas. Maybe I'm missing the boat here, but this train of thought has allowed me to raise my head high and be proud that we can make a difference, that what our ancestors sacrificed was absolutely worth it.........I guess time will tell....... Oh, and I forgot to welcome you to the forum too BillyB......sorry if I was rough on ya, it's like a new engine, takes a few forum miles before ya get broke in......

 

[BillyB]

Rob, I support your position. And your reply supports mine.

Nice try at a redirect w/a strawman, except, the specious argument isn't our love for our country, I am a proud patriot too. I abhor Chinese outsourcing. But I don't blame the Chinese corporate joint ventures for doing what they are doing. Just as i don't blame dental techs for being limited by corporations to buying socialized subsidized foreign dental products. Yet the result is the same - the gutting of our wonderful country - and it is we Americans that have allowed it, if not encouraged it by supporting the walmarting of our economy.

Certainly the age of America's rise to economic power and manufacturing power can't be considered socialist/communist - America was the prime actor in global anti Communism.

But now corporate America has sold Americans down the river and are using the cheapest labor (based on various socialist & communist infrastructures) they can find - communist and socialist labor - and ship it to America because all of America's trade protections have been stripped away.

I am simply noting the hypocrisy of the claims of commie China screwing w/our economy with outsourcing at the same time as touting other foreign socialistic products and claiming to be "all American" and "made in America" when that simply isn't the case.

W/o all of these socialized nations forming ventures with the manufacturers of the products we are using, then, it is we who support this outsoucing by espousing the use, and using of their products.

I don't support the gutting of American manufacturing and therefore jobs. Period. By anyone or any corporation.

But if I were to dedicate myself to 100% US made equipment and materials for dentistry, well, it would be a short list and an ill equipped lab.

If you are a proud Anti Communist or a proud Anti Socialist, then don't buy their socialist products. Good luck with that effort.

,
Billy

 

[TheLabGuy]

I think you posted before reading my 2nd post to you..........
Either way, I appreciate the luck and will continue the effort.

 

[BillyB]

Yep. I posted a reply before your second post to me.

I think you posted before reading my 2nd post to you..........
Either way, I appreciate the luck and will continue the effort.

Yes.

Rob, I think we agree on most points. Sorry to get started off here on the wrong foot.


,
Billy

 

[TheLabGuy]

Yes.

Rob, I think we agree on most points. Sorry to get started off here on the wrong foot.


,
Billy

It wasn't the wrong foot per say......It just happens to be a "hot" and passionate topic amongst most people, especially me and my big mouth. I'm curious about something, without going into the politics (even though we may have too),you brought up something I think is very important......as it pertains to tariffs, subsidies, import/export taxes. I don't see this in the dental lab industry. I know you'll see it with textiles and agriculture products, but I'm curious why you added it to the conversation? I understand as the big picture, but other than the trickle down effect, how do you see it affecting the dental lab industry?

 

[BillyB]

Rob, The socialist/commie nations of Europe and Asia have socialized the costs of their infrastructures like higher education and technical schools, transportation, as well as health care costs, etc etc. This is essentially subsidizing their domestic corporations that open up factories there because of the well educated workforce and the cost of health coverage is lower. (Like Honda decided to cancel a production line in LA. only to set it up in Canada because of these very things.) Not to mention that most of these large manufacturers (like the dental manufacturers of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein) have R&D development costs underwritten by their governments. Since they are mostly joint ventures, the economic power of the government enables this up-front cost to be absorbed in order to create long term profit for the joint venture. It keeps the jobs in-country. The wages to cost of living ratios are higher there than here because of this. If you have travelled, notice that in Germany -by and large - they drive German cars (foreign cars have tariffs to offset the domestic tax & revenue losses if one decides to buy foreign, and American car has a 40% tariff in Germany),in Italy they drive Italian cars (for the same reasons as germany),in England they drive English cars (for the same reason),in Asia they drive Asian cars (same reason). But, when you look around at America ... well no tariffs means Americans are buying subsidized foreign cars (and many of the foreign manufacturers who set up factories in the US are given US tax subsidies to set up shop here) - the most subsidized car by the US taxpayers? Mercedes Benz and KIA. Not to mention that they are joint ventures with their own government.

There is a trade war going on, Rob. The european and Asian governments are backing up their (dental) manufacturing base to take the US manufacturers down. Sadly, even US states subsidize these very same foreign companies.

Our country is being gutted right before our very eyes. When it comes to trade policy, I'm a protectionist. Because I believe that America is worth protecting! And there is a trade war being waged against us, and America as a whole is doing nothing but accommodating it.

We need to wrest control of our trade policy out of the hands of multinational corporations and put US labor and manufacturing back in control of American democracy. That is what made America great, and it is what we have lost.

Also, your comment that letting a Densply salesman into my lab "should speak volumes about your (my) character right there" is puerile and uncalled for. Should I turn away the UPS and FEDEX delivery drivers also? Go down to their trucks and look at the percentage of "e in China' boxes they are delivering. What? 95% 99%. They are the prime players in the "new economy". They even advertise this as a major part of their business models every night on US TV. They are the facilitators of Chinese outsourcing - and they will work a deal with any and all interested parties, plus they'll manage the US customs details. Does allowing these trade prostitutes into your lab "speak volumes about your character right there"? Of course not. Specious argument, at best.

You're right, Rob. It is a "hot" topic, and I've got a big mouth too.

Looking forward to more conversation on this.

,
Billy

 

[TheLabGuy]

Okay, I have to address the "character" comment first because I didn't think it was uncalled for. When UPS or FedEx start making crowns like Dentsply will I give that part of your conversation any validity. In addition, Dentsply is all nice to you, cozy right up to you don't they, but are also more than happy to go out and cozy right up to your clients as well......."Hey, Doctor Smith, I know Billy is doing a good job for you but he's pretty expensive, how about you try our $29 dollar PFM", meanwhile Billy is over at his lab, busting his rump to make sure a case drops in for a fair price while employing Americans and not running a sweat shop to do it.........in my opinion, there is no comparison brother.....

Now as for information concerning the global economy.........from what I get, your saying it's time for the government to get involved and start doing some of these tariffs/taxes/subsidies that other governments are providing for there manufacturing industry? Should our government be the one to do this?.....I've always been under the assumption that we don't need more government intervention in our lives. However, when your battling a unfair (communist) government who is stacking the deck against your industry, you would have a very valid argument to say our government needs to be involved. Now lets say you are the government (play along),what would you put into place? a tariff, tax, subsidy? I know it's more complicated than this but on a 'dental lab' industry role, I'm curious what you would suggest. I'm asking here, and promise I won't throw in anymore snide comments. I'm just toughening you up for these forums, just wait till you get someone who really disagrees with you.