Warning: Pushing and shoving will take place here

[DMC]

Mark, you mean you can't find kids right out of school that are capable of running a lab??

Isn't that what you did? I have never seen anyone step out of school and make a decent tooth. What's the secret??

I mean, I had to put in seven years of working for various labs before I had the skills to open my own lab. I even had a dad who taught C&B at Dental school with a big private practice. But, even still I had no business trying to run a lab right out of school.

What doctor would send work to kids just out of school? I wouldn't even hire them, and sounds like you too.


I'm being sarcastic, in case you couldn't tell.

 

[wwcanoer]

LA LA Land (and surrounding area) or flipping burgers? Sorry Mark, John and the rest of you in So Cal, to each their own. I like the fog and the rain and low population density

But I am surprised that you have problem finding qualified employees down there

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, you mean you can't find kids right out of school that are capable of running a lab??

Isn't that what you did? I have never seen anyone step out of school and make a decent tooth. What's the secret??

I mean, I had to put in seven years of working for various labs before I had the skills to open my own lab.

IT takes that long to learn how to do the technicial work, and that is a prerequisite for owning a lab. The skill set to run and operate a business is another animal altogether, and even now, I question my ability to do it right.

We have ONE decent school out here, and even then we have to start from scratch and re-teach them most everything they learned. I'm talking about finding and hiring the experieneced technicians. Very difficult to find around here at the quality level we are looking for. Many of the people that we try out do VERY crude work, not unlike what Al showed the other day.

We just don't have the resources to try and train them ourselves except for very basic lab work or CAD CAM.

What started this discussion was the high end ceramics and esthetic part of contouring and that is hard to find without years of experience. We HAVE found a few that showed promise, but the lacked the productivity we need. If you have both, you can make a very good living in this industry without owning a lab.

 

[rkm rdt]

Don't worry, China will get better before you know it.

Remember when" e in Japan" was considered sarcasm?

 

[Mark Jackson]

Don't worry, China will get better before you know it.

Remember when" e in Japan" was considered sarcasm?

China is already getting better, and they have opened up corporate offices here. They also have one in Vancouver. They are hiring Patterson reps and they are doing a very professional job of it.

As we do more and more CAD CAM, and remove the "craftsmanship" side of things, we can reduce direct labor costs, and speed production time, and off shore will no longer be at threat except tof the very bottom percentile of work.

I am much more concerned about the big manufacturers than I am China. BTW, I can get the work done in Africa even cheaper than Asia. There will always be a NEW third world. As least for the rest of our lifetime.

 

[Mountain Goat]

China is already getting better, and they have opened up corporate offices here. They also have one in Vancouver. They are hiring Patterson reps and they are doing a very professional job of it.

As we do more and more CAD CAM, and remove the "craftsmanship" side of things, we can reduce direct labor costs, and speed production time, and off shore will no longer be at threat except tof the very bottom percentile of work.

I am much more concerned about the big manufacturers than I am China. BTW, I can get the work done in Africa even cheaper than Asia. There will always be a NEW third world. As least for the rest of our lifetime.

Mark, Nice work!! And you are dead on, someone or some country will always do it cheaper. I like your game plan, and clearly the end results are very nice, I have the same mind set, let CAD CAM take work to a certain point and THEN let the talent finish it up, bill that baby and send it out!

 

[dmonwaxa]

China is already getting better, and they have opened up corporate offices here. They also have one in Vancouver. They are hiring Patterson reps and they are doing a very professional job of it.

As we do more and more CAD CAM, and remove the "craftsmanship" side of things, we can reduce direct labor costs, and speed production time, and off shore will no longer be at threat except tof the very bottom percentile of work.

I am much more concerned about the big manufacturers than I am China. BTW, I can get the work done in Africa even cheaper than Asia. There will always be a NEW third world. As least for the rest of our lifetime.

I know some one who knows someone who knows someone whos brother in law's cousin sister's friend can get you a real good deal on African dentures, someone already posted the pictures on here......popcorn

 

[rkm rdt]

I have no plans to remove the "craftsmanship" side of things.

 

[Mark Jackson]

I know some one who knows someone who knows someone whos brother in law's cousin sister's friend can get you a real good deal on African dentures, someone already posted the pictures on here......popcorn

I'm assuming you are just being sarcastic. I don't know why we think we have some kind of corner on the market when it comes to the ability to make a marketable product for dentistry. On my trip to Zimbabwe in 2008, I spent the day at Pan Dental Laboratory in Harare, and I assure you, these guys can turn out a VERY high quality product. They use Lava zirconia, milled in RSA, and they are all highly educated.

$3 a week is about the norm for labor in this part of the world. MUCH, much cheaper than Asia.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, Nice work!! And you are dead on, someone or some country will always do it cheaper. I like your game plan, and clearly the end results are very nice, I have the same mind set, let CAD CAM take work to a certain point and THEN let the talent finish it up, bill that baby and send it out!

The anatomical libraries in the software we have today is so much faster and more consistent than we can get by hand. We can scan a model, and send the patterns to the wax mill in less than six minutes.



A little finesse by a level six technian and you've got some world class contours in my opinion. We are doing our Emax this way, and hope to switch over to press-to for our PFG/PFZ within a couple months.

Today's 40 man lab is doing the work of what would have taken 100 people a decade ago, and the quality and consistency are on par with many botique labs. THIS, in my opinion is a huge step towards competing with the off shore labs. We are playing with some methods for automated de-vesting, and taking the labor out at every other step as well.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Mark, i've heard you mention "level six ceramist" a couple times now, can you explain the different levels. I've never heard of this nomenclature before, is this just your labs terms?

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, i've heard you mention "level six ceramist" a couple times now, can you explain the different levels. I've never heard of this nomenclature before, is this just your labs terms?

I'm sorry, I should explain that. We have skill levels for all our tasks. technicians are assigned skill levels based on ability and experience. Everybody here is on hourly pay, with a production incentive. Every job they do is given a dollar value. The higher your skill level, the higher the rate per piece. This is where our system beats out other production incentive systems, in that it gives an incentive to every technician to get more education, more CE, and to cross train in other departments. You can only reach level six, by being at least a level five in every department.

Those L6 technicians are mostly former lab owners, or Air Force guys who can do everything, and get lots of CE to maintain that level. Not getting CE every year will drop you back down to L5.

It's strictly a PCDL thing, so it doesn't make sense to you, I understand. We use the terminolgy so much here that I forget who I'm talking to.

 

[dmonwaxa]

I'm assuming you are just being sarcastic. I don't know why we think we have some kind of corner on the market when it comes to the ability to make a marketable product for dentistry. On my trip to Zimbabwe in 2008, I spent the day at Pan Dental Laboratory in Harare, and I assure you, these guys can turn out a VERY high quality product. They use Lava zirconia, milled in RSA, and they are all highly educated.

$3 a week is about the norm for labor in this part of the world. MUCH, much cheaper than Asia.

Who me? I would never do that, welllllll,,,,,maybe just a little. I thought it was funny that you mentioned the African continent and earlier someone posted a pic of a streetcorner stand full of dentures recovered from the deceased. Ironic in regards to previous posts and what was thought of being inferred. However I sometimes find humor in that sort of thing, this was one of those instances. Didnt mean to offend you, cause you're a big boy, with biiiig gunns. Just a a little fun. Mark, believe me I know we dont hold the corner on the market. There are techs "artisan" all around the world that would put some of the best to shame, just not discovered. Talent is talent period. I've seen it. I was in Teotihuacan MX, and there were some local guys carving Obsidian with a BA belt driven machine. My only thought, which I relayed to my host and fellow tech was, just imagine if they had a handpiece.

It is sad on many levels that that kind of talent is out there, and in most cases they are highly educated like you mentioned, just not recognized and appreciated on their merits. China as much as some hate it have raised the bar if only so subtly, esthetically with disregard to materials. Seems like every one is stuck on China, but there are other third world nations with established labs like Mexico, Costa Rica Honduras etc right at the back door of the US but that really doesnt matter because those who carry blame have already set up shop here in the US.

You have access, and are in very fortunate position. You relay information some controversial , and as such you can expect some folks might take some swings, but this wasnt one of those times I assure you. I have more tact and decorum than that, and if from our interactions so far you should know.

 

[Mark Jackson]

You have access, and are in very fortunate position. You relay information some controversial , and as such you can expect some folks might take some swings, but this wasnt one of those times I assure you. I have more tact and decorum than that, and if from our interactions so far you should know.

I get it my friend. You don't know me yet, but several people here do, and I don't take any of this personal. I'll go sword to sword on this stuff, and then fight you for the dinner and bar tab.

I have seen some pretty crazy stuff in every part of the world. I owned a lab in Denmark, and I can assure you some of the WORST work I've seen was done by German techncians, so nobody has the patent on junk.

Africa is the next third world to enter the fray. As the Asians (and I include India in that) moves and develops a middle class, they will no longer be competitive in fields where cheap labor holds all the cards.

CAD CAM is taking the cheap labor advantage away, so the real threat from these places is bad materials. And we need to get our own house in order before we can take that advantage away from them too.

And BTW, yes, I AM in a very fortunate position. I'm blessed and grateful.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Likewise, you should get to know me, I'm so much more than a pretty face, dinner and drinks fine as long as you pick up the tab, like I said you're a big fella and anyone who slays animals the size you do I know better, momma didn't raise no fools. Look forward to meeting you.

 

[araucaria]

Africa is the next third world to enter the fray. As the Asians (and I include India in that) moves and develops a middle class

The interesting point yet to be made is that these 'poorer' nations/continents will be busy enough serving their own domestic markets as the population begins to generate a steady income and a consumer mentality. Of course there are big opportunities to serve overseas customers but I feel the threat that is percieved by some will not hold out in the long term - the development of quality systems and CE will maintain job security for those who posess the skills and knowledge that the market needs.

 

[Mark Jackson]

The interesting point yet to be made is that these 'poorer' nations/continents will be busy enough serving their own domestic markets as the population begins to generate a steady income and a consumer mentality. Of course there are big opportunities to serve overseas customers but I feel the threat that is percieved by some will not hold out in the long term - the development of quality systems and CE will maintain job security for those who posess the skills and knowledge that the market needs.

I could kiss you.

***SMOOOCH***

 

[dmonwaxa]

The interesting point yet to be made is that these 'poorer' nations/continents will be busy enough serving their own domestic markets as the population begins to generate a steady income and a consumer mentality. Of course there are big opportunities to serve overseas customers but I feel the threat that is percieved by some will not hold out in the long term - the development of quality systems and CE will maintain job security for those who posess the skills and knowledge that the market needs.

I agree, America has gone from being an industrual, manufacturing entity and has evolved into a hi tech service related economy. Dental technicians are for the most part the last of that dying breed of manufacturers. When a nation's economic and educational status improves and the earning potential improves, technology usually fill the void for labor as is happening right now domestically. Yes, some countries might still be 20-30 years behind the us economically but that lag and seperation is being curtailed due to evolving technologies,the world as we know it is shrinking daily and so are those developmental cycles. Who knows the US may soon become subservient to some of those rapidly developing nations.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Who knows the US may soon become subservient to some of those rapidly developing nations.

Never happen. We'll find an excuse to nuke them if they get too uppity. We would have already nuked Canada just because of Celine Dion, but all their snow would melt and flood us out.

Seriously, we have always been innovators, but there will always be ways for people to steal intellectual property and ideas. THe future looks rosey to me, but we do have some challenges ahead.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Yea, I have been doing wax printing and/or milling, also tops to bottoms, zr and wax top, metal wax bottom for casting and wax top. I figure doing that with "
tweaking" at certain stages can push work faster AND more consistant. Between doing that and keeping my inventory simple...for example not going with a complicated porcelain system but, instead pressing emax, GC, and Zirpress.....I can put out profecient work with less heartburn.