Warning: Pushing and shoving will take place here

[rkm rdt]

Outsourceing is part of the problem.

However I see a glaring difference between US and Canada( would like to hear from other countries).

Before I get to that, I think there is one thing we have in common.

I hear alot about big labs vs small labs.I don't think it's that cut and dry.I think it is more like manufacturers vs technicians.
Manufacturers call themselves labs or techs but I think that is a red herring.
I think small lab owners and those who choose the path of self improvement are focused more on the craft or skill they build throughout their career.They put themselves in the patient's shoes and get great pleasure from a happy dentist and patient.

The big boys are a different personality altogether.Growth and market share are paramount.They are manufacturers and there is nothing wrong with that.They are all about the numbers and This leads me to my first point.

The dentist can make a profit off of your work! Here in Canada that is professional misconduct and illegal.
As long as they can profit from your labour the big boys have the edge. Mass production is the advantage .They can keep the prices down and screw the competition at the same time.
I don't think education will help without a paradigm shift in how your services are administered and paid for.

I'm sure Glidewell has an educational department.

How do you solve this? I don't think a lab association will be in your best interest,but a technician association might.Public awareness maybe.

Just an outside observation.

 

[Mark Jackson]

I hear alot about big labs vs small labs.I don't think it's that cut and dry.I think it is more like manufacturers vs technicians.
Manufacturers call themselves labs or techs but I think that is a red herring.

I was a dental technician first. Then, after paying my dues I became a business owner. I paid even more dues learning to do that. I own a dental laboratory because it's all I've ever done since I was a teen ager. I have RDT after my name, just like you.

I think small lab owners and those who choose the path of self improvement are focused more on the craft or skill they build throughout their career.They put themselves in the patient's shoes and get great pleasure from a happy dentist and patient.

So do I, but I also think some lab owners would be better off financially, professionally, and personally if they worked for someone like me instead of owning a lab. I have some lab customers whom I talk to like a therapist, for hours at a time. Some of them owe me a lot of money, and I want to just write off what they owe me, I feel so bad for them.

With me, they could possibly make six figures, work with cutting edge technology, have better benefits than a goverment worker, and a 401k with matching to retire in comfort. Many lab owners die with clapped out equipment and a bill with the gold company.

The big boys are a different personality altogether.Growth and market share are paramount.They are manufacturers and there is nothing wrong with that.They are all about the numbers

That's why I'm IN BUSINESS! Was I supposed to take an oath of poverty to be a dental technician? I'm in business to make money every day. I hire people who love to be technicians, and I take care of making sure we make money. As much money as possible, for as LONG as possible.

That means treating my employees right, my customers right, and operating in a moral and ethical, and even spiritual manner.

The dentist can make a profit off of your work! Here in Canada that is professional misconduct and illegal. As long as they can profit from your labour the big boys have the edge.

That's why I don't live in Canada.


Mass production is the advantage .They can keep the prices down and screw the competition at the same time.


Trust me, I don't want to keep prices DOWN. I scream about it every day.

I'm sure Glidewell has an educational department.

You bet they do. They also have a 69 man R&D team. They didn't get to be the size they are, doing 4000 units day without doing something right. They make a consistently good product, and doctors seem to find it to be a good value. Do you have a better explanation for their success?

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[Mountain Goat]

I agree with Al......like I said...US labs got caught with pants down, I see garbage alllllll day long, just look at the models we pour from our own doctors, work so bad you don't need to see it in person, the model is enough to see the lack of proficency. Let the big greedy labs battle off shore labs, who wants to churn out work at that pace anyway? I know for a fact working inside one of those places is a one way ticket to a straight jacket....that is if you as a technician have a conscience, if not then that is the prefect place for you to be, keeps you out of my way.....

 

[Mountain Goat]

big labs like Glidewell mostly play a big numbers game, for every 20 dentists they market to, they may retain repeat business from 2 or 3. Since dental schools keep putting out in debt dentists, then Glidewell and other large labs have a constant supply of new customers. Most dentists say Glidewell with a bit of sarcasm, they know it is a gamble when they send work, but they keep trying because of the low prices. thats all it is, it is a numbers game with a huge sales/marketing force to keep the train wreck from crashing.I have worked in 2 states for 18 years as a technician, I have NEVER met one dentist who loved their work or used them on a regular basis. Not one. Its like Lumineers...the coupons they send out, dentists can't seem to resist the urge to try them, and I usually get a desperate call to remake a case that made the patient look like Cindy Lou Who. Like moths to a flame...they(dentists) can't help themselves.....it is a sickness.

 

[Mark Jackson]

I agree with Al......like I said...US labs got caught with pants down, I see garbage alllllll day long, just look at the models we pour from our own doctors, work so bad you don't need to see it in person, the model is enough to see the lack of proficency.

Agreed. We must have our own houses in order before we can begin to demand more and better from our dentists, and to expect more and better for ourselves.

 

[Al.]

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Mark I cant pull your quote, but regarding your statment about lab owners and working for large labs and making 6 figures.

I agree. I think with lowering crown prices and the cost of running business, mostly with the different taxes and fees and employee bennifets it is very difficult for small to medium lab owners to make a profit.

I predict we will see more small labs owners let go of their employees and go it alone.

I did 15 years ago and it was the best thing I ever did.

For 20 years I had anywhere between 2 and 5 employees for strickly C&B.
I never made over 60 grand a year and the tax burden and bills and hours are huge for that income. We were doing 10 to 15 units a day.

My eyes were opened when I worked with Mike Mccann for 1 yr where they were producing 100 + units a day. I learned to produce.

I said heck with employees Im not working for them anymore.
Me and the wife went solo and my income more than doubled and sometimes is almost triple what it was when we had employees.

I predict with offshoring and the rise of mega labs it is the small and medium sized labs that will be squeesed out and like I said we will see large labs and 1and 2 man operations.

But I have to add, I think it is very hard for 1 tech to be productive and make a decent profit, but 2 techs working together with a system can produce.

 

[rkm rdt]

"The dentist can make a profit off of your work! Here in Canada that is professional misconduct and illegal. As long as they can profit from your labour the big boys have the edge.

That's why I don't live in Canada."

So you have no problem with a dentist making a profit from the lab work.That's fine but then you complain about low lab fees.That seems to be a contradiction to me.

"
That's why I'm IN BUSINESS! Was I supposed to take an oath of poverty to be a dental technician? I'm in business to make money every day. "

So am I. It's just that I don't have to mass produce to make a decent living. The CDN $ is at par with the US$. My pfm fee is about $350.00 I can pick and choose who to work WITH not for.

We have labs that charge more and labs that charge less. There is room for evryone.
Outsourceing overseas may be around 5% but that is just a guess.

No doubt that Glidewell is doing things right.They are very successful. I am not criticising their template at all. You misread my point.

 

[Al.]

My suggestions to all techs is to take one case a week and make a show case of it.

Single unit to multiple it dosent matter just one case.

Photograph it from different angles and look at enlarged on your computer.

Next week do it again but make improvments based on what you saw from your last case.

One case is not alot of extra time per week but it adds up, and at the end of the year you will have 52 cases and your work will be very, very, much improved.
I said two verys because when you look back at your earlier work the differences may be striking.

Also you will have built a portfolio of some of your best work, and that is an unbeliveable marketing tool and a way to demonstrate value to Drs.

If you can make cases nice under the macro lens I promise they will look better by eye.

IMO cheap offshore, big box lab and hightech automated crowns, will leave a void for higher end crowns and highly skilled techs to produce them.

The labs producing mediocre work are the ones that may be hurting more in the future.

 

[user name]

My suggestions to all techs is to take one case a week and make a show case of it.

Single unit to multiple it dosent matter just one case.

Photograph it from different angles and look at enlarged on your computer.

Next week do it again but make improvments based on what you saw from your last case.

One case is not alot of extra time per week but it adds up, and at the end of the year you will have 52 cases and your work will be very, very, much improved.
I said two verys because when you look back at your earlier work the differences may be striking.

Also you will have built a portfolio of some of your best work, and that is an unbeliveable marketing tool and a way to demonstrate value to Drs.

If you can make cases nice under the macro lens I promise they will look better by eye.

IMO cheap offshore, big box lab and hightech automated crowns, will leave a void for higher end crowns and highly skilled techs to produce them.

The labs producing mediocre work are the ones that may be hurting more in the future.

Best words in this thread.

 

[Al.]

I've known Dr. Dean for years and he's a stand up guy. I know for a fact there was much more going on behind the scenes and at the time the Chinese were offering the best salary. That's who seems to have the money these days......go figure, it isn't like we haven't been sending our money that way for years, what do you expect.

Dentalle is where Dr Mersky is reping for. It is a outsource lab that markets directly for lab to lab outsourcing. While my interactions have only been with Dean via the internet I am certain that the respect you have had for him in the past is not in vain. He is a solid individual and an asset to our industry.

I agree about Dr Mersky, Hes called me a couple of times and I really like him and respect his knowlege.

You know how active he was promoting captek to dentists and how persistant he was on dental forums.

He is doing the same now with offshoring.
He is a great salesman and he is pushing chinese crowns/products hard.

He will really do alot to help make mainstream or legitimize Drs perscribing these crowns.

 

[rkm rdt]

Al, would you work for Glidewell?

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark I cant pull your quote, but regarding your statment about lab owners and working for large labs and making 6 figures.

I agree. I think with lowering crown prices and the cost of running business, mostly with the different taxes and fees and employee bennifets it is very difficult for small to medium lab owners to make a profit.

I predict with offshoring and the rise of mega labs it is the small and medium sized labs that will be squeesed out and like I said we will see large labs and 1and 2 man operations.

I agree with you Al. But a man can make a very respectable living working for someone else, and there is NO shame in that. Combine all the benefits with incentives and profit sharing and you in essence become a partner in the business. I have had to move two technicians here from South Carolina and one for Salt Lake City this past year, and they closed their labs to make the move. I don't think they've even been happier.

And AL, with regard to bigger labs not producing quality, I'll bet you put just as much heart into the work you did for the lab you worked at, as you do now. Integrity and slef respect don't change with the name on the door.

I think another threat you forgot to mention is the big manufacturers like 3M and Dentsply, just to name a couple. We've seen them encroach on us in the past five years, and that is just a toe in the water.

 

[Mark Jackson]

I agree about Dr Mersky, Hes called me a couple of times and I really like him and respect his knowlege.

He is doing the same now with offshoring.
He is a great salesman and he is pushing chinese crowns/products hard.

I have had him here in my lab a half a dozen times, training my technicians and lecturing to my customers. He's a knowledgeable, EVERYMAN dentist.

Don't count on him schilling for China long term.

 

[dmonwaxa]

What happened to all the pushing and shoving that was supposed to take place here?

By design large labs can produce more efficiently than smaller labs, thats a no brainer. Given their purchasing power further increases their profit margin .When their products are priced so low however there is no way small operations can compete, thats another no brainer. Some of the problems lies in the niggling of some docs wanting the same prices from small labs,,,,thats a no brainer. On top of that they want extra services normally not associated or consistent with products in that price range; another no brainer. Kinda like going to a mom an pop burger joint and expecting MickyDs pricing, allong with the dollar menu. BTW, I'll only pay a dollar but I'd like to have fries and a drink. but can you make home fries fresh, and seasoned and the drink fresh brewed tea, Darjeerling would be nice and oh yes mushrooms on the burger, angus right? aged? WT............ Thats the mentality of some. So when I alluded to education it wasnt just about technicians, "professionals incuded".

So as far as profitability goes whos making the profit on sub $100 crowns?. I believe this is where issues of fair trade, regulations regarding pricing; and the American public need to be included.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Mark, are you spamming? sounds like you're recruiting? Al. whatever you do dont go to the dark side....LOL

 

[Al.]

I agree with you Al. But a man can make a very respectable living working for someone else, and there is NO shame in that. Combine all the benefits with incentives and profit sharing and you in essence become a partner in the business. I have had to move two technicians here from South Carolina and one for Salt Lake City this past year, and they closed their labs to make the move. I don't think they've even been happier.

And AL, with regard to bigger labs not producing quality, I'll bet you put just as much heart into the work you did for the lab you worked at, as you do now. Integrity and slef respect don't change with the name on the door.

I think another threat you forgot to mention is the big manufacturers like 3M and Dentsply, just to name a couple. We've seen them encroach on us in the past five years, and that is just a toe in the water.

Mark, regarding quality of large labs if the contacts occlusion and margins and shades and overall forms are correct,no one can say heir quality is poor. They have met all the clinical requirments.
Its the esthetics that they often lack and the more natural detailed contours and colors. And with so many hands touching crowns and with a push to get them out the door fast there often are consistancy issues.

If I had a large lab I would have a seperate dept, doing high end work and photodocumenting these cases, and use this department to help build the over all reputation of the lab and for marketing. Like Ultimate Styles does, but I have had 3 high profile Drs tell me they have had communication and even consistancy problems there.

Its a tough business no matter what your business model is.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, regarding quality of large labs if the contacts occlusion and margins and shades and overall forms are correct,no one can say heir quality is poor. They have met all the clinical requirments.
Its the esthetics that they often lack and the more natural detailed contours and colors. And with so many hands touching crowns and with a push to get them out the door fast there often are consistancy issues.

Its a tough business no matter what your business model is.

That is the truth. But technicians who love what they do, take pride in it, no matter who pays them. Any given the time to relax and do the work without the stress and distractions of running the business allows them to really put their time and heart into it.

This is nowhere as nice as some of you guys do, but I think we make a decent product for the price we charge, and we use FDA GMP's and only the Emax materials:

 

[dmonwaxa]

I agree with you Al. But a man can make a very respectable living working for someone else, and there is NO shame in that. Combine all the benefits with incentives and profit sharing and you in essence become a partner in the business. I have had to move two technicians here from South Carolina and one for Salt Lake City this past year, and they closed their labs to make the move. I don't think they've even been happier.

And AL, with regard to bigger labs not producing quality, I'll bet you put just as much heart into the work you did for the lab you worked at, as you do now. Integrity and slef respect don't change with the name on the door.
I think another threat you forgot to mention is the big manufacturers like 3M and Dentsply, just to name a couple. We've seen them encroach on us in the past five years, and that is just a toe in the water.

Thats so true, I'm sure that factors in when one decides to go solo.

 

[Al.]

Thats a really nice case Mark!

Ive got no doubt there are techs buried in big labs that do as nice of work as Matt Roberts the only difference between their $150 crown and his $600 crown is their name recognection among Dentists.

Like ****y Jeans vs Levi's.

And he takes professional and detailed pics of his work both on the model and in the mouth, and puts them out.

You should take more pics of your work, especially in the mouth since you have operatorys next door. Show your techs so they can see how crappy or good their work is. Especially use the crappy cases to show them where they need to improve and the good cases to praise them.

Personally I wouldnt have a problem working in a big lab as long as I didnt dissapear on the line.
One negative for alot of people and a positive for others is your in California. A polarizing state.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Thats a really nice case Mark!

You should take more pics of your work, especially in the mouth since you have operatorys next door. Show your techs so they can see how crappy or good their work is. Especially use the crappy cases to show them where they need to improve and the good cases to praise them.

Personally I wouldnt have a problem working in a big lab as long as I didnt dissapear on the line.
One negative for alot of people and a positive for others is your in California. A polarizing state.

Al, we don't need to take pictures becuase the technicians go over and watch their cases get seated every day. They get so see the patients reaction and they get to watch the doctor making adjustments sometimes. All of this experience goes into the cases we do every day for our other dentists, and we have six dentists here to look at cases when we want a dentists opinion.

I think more people jump to conclusions about the work we do based on the number of people. It's a shame because my folks really care and are proud of what they do.

We're not even a big lab!

BTW, I appreciate the compliment. It means a lot coming from you Al, whom you know I've praised a number of times.