need to buy mill and oven advice

[Glenn Kennedy]

Tony,

Your current employer, was a Roland reseller for a short period of time. During that time there were two early customers that had issues with the DWX-50. Rather than have them out of production while the problem was diagnosed we provided a replacement unit. This was the fastest way to keep the customers in production.

The returned mills were diagnosed and repaired by our service technicians at Roland DGA. It is an important part of our ISO certification to not only solve any problems with our products but to identify the cause and implement a solution. This takes time so I am sure the customers appreciated a replacement unit rather than being out of production until the units were diagnosed and repaired.

The machines were not swapped several times as you stated in your post.

Regarding calibration of your in house production unit, the mill is in heavy use and your CAD production manager uses aggressive strategies to maximize production and minimize milling time. Based on the amount of restorations that machine produces in a week and the number of years that it has been doing it, a weekly calibration (that is completely automated and takes about 15 minutes) is not too much to ask.

Roland DGA cancelled our reseller agreement with your employer for reasons that I will not go into here. I just want to keep the record straight regarding the two customers that ran into a problem with their DWX-50 and how Roland DGA responded to get them into production as quickly as possible.

-Glenn

 

[TheLabGuy]

To the original poster, I wouldn't go with the DWX-4, sure the price looks enticing but it doesn't hold 98mm pucks, it has the little dinky square pucks and not many manufacturers are making that special square puck for it. It sounds like to me you are beyond the DWX-4, I'd suggest the Roland DWX-50, but there is plenty of machines out there for you. Out of curiosity, what type of scanner are you using? What type of CAM software are you looking at, milling strategies, burs? Either way, don't forget about your support, DLN is good, real good, and most folks can walk you through anything here but you will still need somebody to help you set it up, figure out the quirks, etc...

 

[Terry Whitty]

Hi Terry,

We sold the Roland DWX-50 for quite sometime, and we used one in our milling center. I have to say overall it's a good milling unit, and no machine is perfect, we just ran into to many issues with it needing to be calibrated on a weekly basis. We also ran into other issues that we can't get into, but a few labs we sold to had there unit replaced several times, it seemed insead of figuring out the real problem they would just rather replace the machine.

I'm sure things are better now.

Thanks, just wanted to know without a blind right off. Its appreciated that you answered candidly.
I have never been in a situation where they need weekly calibration, but there are many different situations granted.
Thanks for the info. Whats your experience in time with the VHF ( master mill)

 

[dentcre]

Hi LAbguy. Im using 3shape 700 And will increase my production to 250 units per month we are small lab 2 person for now.
To many choices out there, will look at the vhf...

Thanks

 

[brayks]

Versamill 4x and Axsys support; that's a winning combination if I ever heard one. Of course I MIGHT just be a little prejudice...
Seriously, if you look at the construction of our mill you will readily see the difference.
Pic's show a wet/dry mill but it also comes in a wet/wet configuration (separate tanks for water and coolant solution).
Check it out: www.axsysdental.com
http://axsysdental.com/Documents/VersaMILL_DataSheet.pdf

 

[cadfan]

Here is a nother option 5 ax wet dry and metal the world is turning roland is still standing

http://www.yenadent.com/Products/Machines/page4/

 

[CreDes]

I have a 3 Shape as well. I bought a Jensen 4 axis mill. I like the mill and Jensen's tech support seems good. I really don't need them too often. You will need a lot of clean, dry air for this mill or a Rolland.
If you do cases needing a 5th axis and if the budget allows, I would probably go with a 5 axis. It is twice the price though compared to the Jensen 4 axis. If most of your work is standard c&b, the VHF may fit your needs and you can mill pucks. Sorry, just random thoughts.

 

[LA Ceramics]

Hi Terry,

We sold the Roland DWX-50 for quite sometime, and we used one in our milling center. I have to say overall it's a good milling unit, and no machine is perfect, we just ran into to many issues with it needing to be calibrated on a weekly basis. We also ran into other issues that we can't get into, but a few labs we sold to had there unit replaced several times, it seemed insead of figuring out the real problem they would just rather replace the machine.

I'm sure things are better now.

The DWX 50 uses belts and pulleys which was fine for milling wax years ago when it was called the JWX 50 for the jewelry industry. Cut Zirc and it's a throw away.
The Mastermill or more accurately the VHF (just sayin) is only slightly better. Talladium is an excellent supply company with a stellar record up until now. I am worried for them. And then there's Roland.......

 

[Tony Garcia]

Thanks, just wanted to know without a blind right off. Its appreciated that you answered candidly.
I have never been in a situation where they need weekly calibration, but there are many different situations granted.
Thanks for the info. Whats your experience in time with the VHF ( master mill)

Hi Terry,
We currently run 6 of the Mastermills "VHF" in our milling center along side our 2 larger Hass units. Rule #1 is to keep em clean, just like any other milling unit. If you stick to that you can't go wrong. Mastermill comes with Jaegar spindle which is a work horse. We offer 2 year warrant because we are that confident that they will hold up. If you are ever in the area you should stop by to see them in action.

 

[Tony Garcia]

I have a 3 Shape as well. I bought a Jensen 4 axis mill. I like the mill and Jensen's tech support seems good. I really don't need them too often. You will need a lot of clean, dry air for this mill or a Rolland.
If you do cases needing a 5th axis and if the budget allows, I would probably go with a 5 axis. It is twice the price though compared to the Jensen 4 axis. If most of your work is standard c&b, the VHF may fit your needs and you can mill pucks. Sorry, just random thoughts.

Hello,
If your interested in some fantastic milling burs for your Jensen let me know. Talladium has a Infinity line of tools for VHF mills that last twice as long as OEM for a fraction of the price. They work great in the Jensen VHF mill. Contact Tony

 

[Sam-CAP]

 

[eyeloveteeth]

The DWX 50 uses belts and pulleys which was fine for milling wax years ago when it was called the JWX 50 for the jewelry industry. Cut Zirc and it's a throw away.
The Mastermill or more accurately the VHF (just sayin) is only slightly better. Talladium is an excellent supply company with a stellar record up until now. I am worried for them. And then there's Roland.......

We mill Zirconia all day long in our DWX-50's (5 of them) - practically 24 hours a day. 2 are nearly at the 1 year mark, and other than wearing tools, it's been a walk in the park.

We tested the VHF 4K4 alongside the Roland DWX50 for about 4 weeks before we made a decision.

First things first, the clamp...WHAT the heck...it broke every rim of every material (other than PMMA) - it became such a problem we even had VHF on the phone. We first thought, okay, maybe we are tightening the clamp too much....so then we kept on loosening the torque....too the point of the puck eventually dropping when it milled. (Wasted many pucks - about 14 various materials, luckily our supplier gave us all of them for free).

Eventually we thought we had it down, and proceeded to mill a full puck in stages. Well, apparently it is not a good idea to mill from the clamp side out...because when we tried milling on the opposite side of the clamp with all 80% of the puck used...it crumbled on us in the mill.

Third week into the test, the contact plate already had to be changed. (Keep in mind this was a brand new unit straight from the manufacturer).

By the fourth week, we made our decision, as everything we did in the VHF, we also did in the Roland - and it passed with flying colors.

Another huge draw back was the VHF CAM software, we were not fans, and REALLY didn't like the fact that VHF locked the software and seemed insulted that I wanted to change anything...

Oh, and the little plastic clips that hold the burs in place snapped more than a few times, and also got stuck in the spindle. - these were OEM burs and collete/spindle maintenance was done.

Lastly, it was a PITA to clean these things out. It was so cramped....we enjoy the open milling space of the Roland alot more.

Finally, milling a screw-retained bridge (which we do quite often) - was the final nail in the coffin for us when the VHF machine just didn't perform to what we wanted.


Now, I am not saying the mini mill/master mill/Glidewell Mill/VHF mill is bad. In fact we know many labs that have bought many of them.... unfortunately for us, they just didn't work out.

We are very happy with the Roland, and also like Sum3D. Not to mention, our reseller has bent over backwards for us.

Hi Terry,
We currently run 6 of the Mastermills "VHF" in our milling center along side our 2 larger Hass units. Rule #1 is to keep em clean, just like any other milling unit. If you stick to that you can't go wrong. Mastermill comes with Jaegar spindle which is a work horse. We offer 2 year warrant because we are that confident that they will hold up. If you are ever in the area you should stop by to see them in action.

Jaegar spindles are great, but what's the point of offering the same warranty as roland? you should offer a 4 year warranty if you are so confident as a reseller. just saying.


also...red herring much? VHF 4K4 and HAAS mill do not belong in the same sentence. EVER.

ex.

MICKEY MOUSE :: VHF/Roland

Gundam/Extreme Glad R1 WoW character :: Haas.

 

[LA Ceramics]

They just simply won't take it much longer eye,...they are not made for that kind of production,...I am quite sure that you don't want to hear that but please understand that I am not criticizing you personally.Tell ya' what,..don't listen to me,..go take the enclosure off of one and look for yourself.Belts, pulleys and a thin aluminum mainframe with an nsk spindle(I think). It was designed specifically for the milling of wax for use in the jewelry industry and it worked reasonably well for it's price point. I hope I haven't made you angry,..it was not my intention. I honestly hope that you continue on with no problems for years and make me look like a dummy. Nuttin' but luv baby

 

[BobCDT]

Hey LA Ceramics, not to "make you look like a dummy". And to first qualify my post, yes I am a Roland distributor. We operate 6 Rolands day and night here at CAP. Milling mostly zirconia then PMMA and wax. Several of the mills are now over two years old, some have all original parts and have milled over 20K units and counting. In addition, we have well over a hundred Roland mill laboratories in North America all cranking away. Many have more than one Roland mill. The mill provides implacable fits, mills the most complex geometries, like full arch screw retained full arch restorations and they just keeps cranking. Not to say they will run forever without a repair. No mill will. The nice thing about Roland, if a repair is needed the price point is reasonable. We looked at a DMG mill several years ago. Great mill. I don't recall the life expectancy of the spindle (i think it was 4000 hours),but I do remember the cost of replacement was $60K. That's the price for two new DWX50's.
Just the fact that the manufacturer provides a two year warranty speaks for the quality of the mill. To my knowledge there is not another in our industry that goes for more than a year. For milling soft dental materials there simply is not a a better mill at or near this price point.
In addition, there are several hundreds of posts here on DLN on Roland DWX50. When you find a negative Roland posts it always seems to come from an individual that doesn't own one. Just because Roland developed a mill that is designed differently than most industrial mill doesn't make it bad. In fact, for for a mill at this price point I think it's ingenious. Look at Tesla. It's different. Would you like to drive one. I would. Different doesn't necessarily relate to inferior.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

They just simply won't take it much longer eye,...they are not made for that kind of production,...I am quite sure that you don't want to hear that but please understand that I am not criticizing you personally.Tell ya' what,..don't listen to me,..go take the enclosure off of one and look for yourself.Belts, pulleys and a thin aluminum mainframe with an nsk spindle(I think). It was designed specifically for the milling of wax for use in the jewelry industry and it worked reasonably well for it's price point. I hope I haven't made you angry,..it was not my intention. I honestly hope that you continue on with no problems for years and make me look like a dummy. Nuttin' but luv baby

you haven't made me angry at all! I was just chiming in my input

I have taken the enclosure off, I have actually carefully disassembled a complete roland, and i think you would be surprised how efficient the belts look.

1. The NSK spindle was designed for wax and aluminum.

2. I think my lab counts as a production lab, as does Mark Jackson, CAP, Albensi, Expertec...etc etc... for us? we buy many rolands...because we know it's not the best, it's not an imes and he!l it's not a Hass or a reuters - but it does what it does very good! and in fact, our experiences were that it was way better than the VHF/other skins.

So, I'm just commenting on my experiences, as I am sure you are commenting on yours.


Are there better items out there today? sort of, and in the future? Absolutely, and we will have ROI'd our rolands and positioned ourselves for that next piece that we need. But for now? I spit out 5 pucks every morning, rangin from PMMA, wax to zirconia...they are a work horse.

Our first one in about a year...has already racked up 5700 hours, and the spindle is going strong. Moreover, if anything WERE to happen, it's all about the reseller.

 

[cadfan]

A lot of guys in their small labs are buying only one mill. My vhf is runing now 3 and a half years , the mill should have never been sold with the bull**** house software of vhf. Thats the reason why a lot of resellers changed. If i have to bye a new mill would i limit my self with a dry one why is the world still standing . Ive seen so many things come an go , what if the FZC hype cool down and a new suprinity, or enamic hype is coming, why as small lab only doing what the others can. Dont limit your self take all options you have!!!

The D 15 for example cost 28000 K Euro inkl. cam plus 2 K wet 250 i 27 K Euro inkl. wet plus cam ca. 6 K

Zircon is a nice material but its not the world and take care especially as small lab with only one mill.Prefer to take a little more money in hand. Pay twice is much more.All the big guys have wet ZZ , AG , VHF, Imes, MB, Dymnach,Yenadent all this manufacturer for small mills run this way just a hype or a must. Röder, GF Achimel, DMG or Haas however they are called the big one all have wet ask *** and the small ones do that now too. ZZ started with the hand mills than dry and now wet why because they do things on the small mikey mouse mills that have being part of the big guys in the past and nobody can believe that it works but it does not all but every day a little bit more.Why has cerec such big fanbase , because of their brilliant materials Mark 2 , Trilux Forte, new Priti crowns with the mirror what happened if docs create a hype on this Mark 2 based preforms , yes you mill them dry , no you cant !!!!!!

 

[NicelyMKV]

In running a Wieland mini/ vhf. These mills are little beasts. I think the difference between all the rebranded VHF mills is the CAM they use and who develops the strategies for them. My Wieland mini has performed phenomenally. I believe a lot has to do with the fact it's running Dental Softworks as it's basic and advanced CAM systems. Then you add in the fact that the strategies were developed by Wieland engineers and you have a truly top quality and consistent result. I am amazed daily at the surface quality and dead on fits of long span bridges etc. coming off this mill. Looking to get the Wieland Select next.

 

[DMC]

The DWX 50 uses belts and pulleys which was fine for milling wax years ago when it was called the JWX 50 for the jewelry industry. Cut Zirc and it's a throw away.
The Mastermill or more accurately the VHF (just sayin) is only slightly better. Talladium is an excellent supply company with a stellar record up until now. I am worried for them. And then there's Roland.......

No encoders....runs blind-folded.

No frame to support the rail system, which is also missing...?

No real CNC rails being used.

Other than that, what a fine piece! LOL

Very similar to my $99 HP paper printer. Almost the exact same design.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

No encoders....runs blind-folded.

No frame to support the rail system, which is also missing...?

No real CNC rails being used.

Other than that, what a fine piece! LOL

Very similar to my $99 HP paper printer. Almost the exact same design.

cost about the same too! lol

 

[Sam-CAP]

No encoders....runs blind-folded.

No frame to support the rail system, which is also missing...?

No real CNC rails being used.

Other than that, what a fine piece! LOL

Very similar to my $99 HP paper printer. Almost the exact same design.

All that and they work great. Hundreds of labs across North America are using this mill and are very happy. Amazing piece of technology isn't it?