Opinion on scanner, vacuum & furnace for Roland DWX50

[qlife]

Our lab is getting ready to purchase the Roland DWX50 mill.
We are still determining which scanner, vacuum and furnace we will purchase.
Software decision is also up in the air.
Any input to help aid in our decision will be appreciated.

We have been through 3 sales reps so far from various suppliers and they all recommend different scanners, but only one gave us all the details as far as models and make. We just want to do our homework to make sure we aren't being ripped off. The first supplier just stated a 3d scanner, no make or model, but it was made in China so we passed. The second supplier stated a DoF scanner with ExoCAD software. I don't know what a DoF scanner is...depth of field? not an actual name brand as far as I could find. The third supplier is pushing the Dental Wings 3series scanner. They also offer the Dental Wings 7series scanner. According to this person, there is a annual license fee for all scanner software, ranging from about $1500-2500/year, but the computer is built into the scanner so no additional computer system is required. They also offered the 3Shape D500 & D700 scanners. They also offered burs good for up to 600 units for $169. The other place was charging $60 for burs good for up to 100 units.

So far we have been quoted estimates as follows:
Roland DWX50 mill $29-30k
DW 3series scanner $16k
DW 7series scanner $28k
3Shape D500 scanner (w/ upgrade) $20k
3Shape D700 scanner $24k
Sum3D milling software $9k
Bofa vacuum $2k
Vaniman vacuum $600
Sintering furnace (unknown brand) $3k
Nabertherm furnace $10.5k
Computer (i7 processor, specs?) $3k

So we have a cost range of $60k-84k... a pretty huge gap. We don't want to end up with some unknown brand with no tech support so good makes with lots of support are a plus. Actual makes and models with an estimated cost would also be very helpful. We don't know if the prices we were estimated are competitive or just marked up with huge margins, so any help would be great. If any of you know of any supplier in the Southern California area that we can contact directly, that would also help. Thanks.

 

[shane williams]

If I had to do it all over again, I would have spent more time researching scanners. Probably go with an Exocad scanner. I'm tired of paying $2,400 a year for 3Shape, plus extra for abutment designer. I do like my Rolands though. A lot of people on here have them. I am looking to see what ***'s mill will be like when he's finished with it. Good luck with your endevor.

Curious, you doing a lot of zr? If you don't mind me asking how many units are you doing a month?

 

[DMC]

Hello Mr. Q,

Medit Identica scanner with exocad that we sell.

$18,5k without PC. Most any Modern PC will do now days.

Can purchase optional Implant and Bar module and many others.

Both run forever without manditory yearly fees. Both the scanner and the CAD software could run on their own, if you feel the need to split up the system to Two computers, or want to sell either piece of the puzzle at later date.

Or, a premium "Steinbichler" scanner that we also sell for much more. (Looks like 3M/Jensen scanner, but an open version)

It is very large and Industrial in it's construction and componants, and very accurate for large-span cases. That would be about $39k without PC. I consider it the best, and also One of the most expensive.

I could be there tommorow if you want?? LOL

Our new 5-axis CNC mill will not be ready for delivery untill May.

Chewbacca
(a.k.a. "Scott")

804-285-0777

 

[Drizzt]

Stay away from Dental AKA "Mental" Wings . I have a 5 series , and trust me you don't want to mess with this software . Full of bugs and problems . I am getting exocad in the following weeks to import scan files and design , and when I can afford it , another scanner to be paired with it .

 

[BobCDT]

You are asking for a boat load of info.
Do the scanner and CAD first. Based on all the threads and posts on this forum I think Dental wings has fallen behind. If anyone out there has a contrary opinion please pipe in. We had it and sold it a couple of years ago. Now Straumann is a major owner and I'm not sure this product is a priority to this huge company. That leaves 3Shape or an open architect scanner and Exocad. As far as the CAD software is concerned I think both will get you what you need to do. Personally I like 3Shape. Also like the intergration that 3Shape has built into the system with the Trios. And, the Trios is best in class IOS. There are many happy Exocad users here as well. If you go with 3Shape the scanner decision is comparatively easy. Exocad is a different story. There are about 20 different open scanners to choose from. They range in price from $6-35K. I think you get what you pay for (again, I think). As far as the annual fees, 3Shape is mandatory and Exocad upgrades are voluntary. Either way, if you want the new features you will need to pay.

Dental specific Mills are now abundant. The choices should be narrowed down based on what you want to mill. The price of entry is considerably less if you mill dry only. No e.max or metals. Roland (dry only 5axis) has worked very well for many of us on DLN. We run four of them day and night. You may also want to look at VHF and Imes. Personal opinion, don't buy a four axis mill. Go for the five. If you only have one mill and its four axis you will be frustrated with what your unable to do with it.

Sintering, go with a furnace that has Mosi2 heating elements. Many do not have this and the replacement heating elements and cost is often and expensive. We like both Mihm Vogt and the Sintra. Both are a little more expensive than what you are looking at. But, they fire very consistantly and don't break down. This is important. You don't want ugly in house remakes due to a bad sintering cycles. The inexpensive furnaces are much less predictable. At least, in our experience. We have seven sintering furnaces and the mentioned ones simply produce the most consistant firing and end result.

CAM, Sum 3D period.

 

[DMC]

Bob, can I come up and get One of your Industrial mills from you, now that you are rocking the little Rolands and loving it?

Like a 3+1 axis Lava mill, for example?

Just say when.....

I second the SUM3d.

We sell cheaper furnaces and love them. Starting at $3000.

I have One Six years old now and we beat the sh1t out of it daily. Also uses MoSi2 elements.

We keep in stock extra elements. I have sold now Twelve furnaces, and we run ourselves.
All customers are happy happy, and look like this pretty much?

 

[qlife]

I know I am asking for a lot of info. I noticed as soon as I finished posting. For now, I wanted to get opinions on various parts. We are set on the DWX50 for the mill. The Dental Wings scanner is not looking too good right now. The 3Shape scanner is kind of pricey to license it seems. We aren't looking for anything too fancy. We just need to be able to mill zirconia copings and bridges, full contour bruxzir and maybe some emax. We don't need to mill any bars or custom abutments. We are processing a couple hundred units monthly. Our current milling costs would offset the cost buying and operating the machine. However, we don't want to go overboard, just trying to match our current and immediate future needs. How is the learning curve on the exocad? I won't have any trouble learning how to use anything (have previous experience with programming CNC machines with MasterCAM & SolidWorks and a previous Cercon machine a couple years back),but I need it to be easy enough to for the work to be processed by someone else. No sense in adding to my current workload.

 

[zero_zero]

If you getting a Roland, get Sum3D + Dental Shaper with it. Then look for the cheapest/best-deal CLOSED scanner out there, sometimes will run half price in comparison with the open version ( for the same hardware ),Sum3D is able to import a huge variety of files. You'll save big.

 

[DMC]

Used Lava scanners everywhere for $5000 or less.

You want One?? Excellent accuracy.

I know where a bunch are.

Very well built!

They are made from Steinbichler, in Germany.

 

[shane williams]

I second the opinion of staying away from Dental Wings. Old tech it seems, not very user friendly especially for full contour designs. I'm not sure how bars are on it, if it can even do that kind of case. My 2 cents is look at what you want to do with CAD. If you're wanting to do bar cases, implant bridge cases, then 3Shape or Exocad scanner. If you can get the quality of Exocad in a scanner for $18,000 I'd go for that option. Then spend the money on getting quality mills. Why spend upwards of $30,000+ on a scanner? Put the savings from the scanner into the mill and CAM software. SUM3D is top notch, and when you can pair it with four up to four Roland's. if you're going with a Roland, get 2. Have you done and ROI?

 

[qlife]

As of now, I'm looking more into the Medit scanner and exocad. As for the Roland ROI, we break about even or a little better with our current workload alone. Hopefully by doing all the zirconia in-house, we can increase revenue by offering more zirconia work. I've also noticed that there were quite a few used LAVA scanners available out there. Can they work with exocad? How are they as far as scanners go? Can they handle a full mouth restorations? I've noticed that some of the older scanners don't have quite the scanning area as some of the newer models.

 

[Accutech]

qlife,
why don't you wait until lab day west and test drive all the new scanners in person before you make up your mind. I've been watching IDS in Germany and lots of cool new toys are scheduled to debut soon. I'm planning on bringing couple crazy cases (as in no draw bridge) and see which scanner will provide me with most user friendly experience and solutions.
I'm going with DWX 50 as well for its versatility and obvious high praises from all the users on here.
As far as suction / vacuum I'm planning on buying another Ray foster unit (currently have 12 of 'em and most are over 10 years old) and hooking it up with Craftsman auto switch ($20) for self explanatory reasons.
I'll be milling lots of zirconia and wax mainly. I want a white / blue light scanner (can't decide) with exocad, sum 3d and Roland.
I'll be graduating from Cerec In Lab. Looking forward to and open system with internet full of options on milling supplies and tools.
My .02
We should hook up at Lab Day West. Just look for the handsome guy with Accutech Name tag.
.

 

[DMC]

used lava scanner (older version) cannot do full mouth in One scan.

The Medit scanner can, as well as the newer steinbichler ST II that we sell new. Those have scanning area large enough for this.

The current Medit is a very nice scanner for the money. I like mine quite a lot. Had many many scanners.

Ray Foster for Zirconia dust?? Are you sure that is safe to do? You need very very good filtration. Like sub-micron.

 

[Accutech]

Well according to their specs primary filter traps down to 3 microns and secondary filters down to 'finer' dust particles. Followed by two more 'filters' to extend motor life and reduce particle emissions so I will test it and see how it performs. Tried all other big name suction units and these outlasted them all. Every once in a while I run down to Grainger couple blocks down and pick up new motor brushes dirt cheap. Only 2 bucks for a set. I plan on changing the primary filter bag everyday after work and make sure my employees follow protocol. Filter bags are dirt cheap also and it's a small price to ensure good health to all my employees.

 

[Drizzt]

I second the opinion of staying away from Dental Wings. Old tech it seems, not very user friendly especially for full contour designs. I'm not sure how bars are on it, if it can even do that kind of case.

Actually the implant and bar module of DW is good . It can do bars , custom abutments and screw retained bridges with no problem . Maybe it is the best feature it has . And full contour has improved greatly with 3.2 version and they will add more libraries with 3.5 version they are going to release soon . The problem is the big amount of bugs . I get a black screen or a frozen screen nealry for half the cases I work on it . It is very annoying and time consuming . I have changed the database 4 times so far , even changed the graphics card from Nvidia to ATI as they suggested , but the problem is still there .

 

[shane williams]

Actually the implant and bar module of DW is good . It can do bars , custom abutments and screw retained bridges with no problem . Maybe it is the best feature it has . And full contour has improved greatly with 3.2 version and they will add more libraries with 3.5 version they are going to release soon . The problem is the big amount of bugs . I get a black screen or a frozen screen nealry for half the cases I work on it . It is very annoying and time consuming . I have changed the database 4 times so far , even changed the graphics card from Nvidia to ATI as they suggested , but the problem is still there .

I'm speaking from 2 1/2 years ago experence. I haven't touched DW in a long time. Don't plan on doing it ever again!! Kinda wish we hadn't sold/traded are in. I was talking with a guy from Exocad, and I guess the scanner might be able to run off of Exocad in the near future.

 

[Drizzt]

I'm speaking from 2 1/2 years ago experence. I haven't touched DW in a long time. Don't plan on doing it ever again!! Kinda wish we hadn't sold/traded are in. I was talking with a guy from Exocad, and I guess the scanner might be able to run off of Exocad in the near future.

I think that making the two of them work together will be possible . That is why I am selling my 5 series . I will try it and if I can make it happen , I will have a brand new setup for only 3-4 k . The scanner actually as hardware is not bad , I never had any accuracy issues with it .

Here's one FCZ

 

[qlife]

Well, I have a rep from dental wings coming by tomorrow morning to show us their software. The last supplier I spoke with is setting it up. I can voice my concerns and I should have a better idea of what we are looking at by tomorrow.

 

[Drizzt]

Well, I have a rep from dental wings coming by tomorrow morning to show us their software. The last supplier I spoke with is setting it up. I can voice my concerns and I should have a better idea of what we are looking at by tomorrow.

Let us know what you think about it ! Have a trial version for some time and work with it .

 

[DMC]

I'd be glad to give you a demo of exocad anytime via/teamviewer.

We can do a bar, or abutments, or ?? with either a Medit scanner, or a Steinbichler

Scott

804-285-0777