Is it time to buy a scanner, projet printer?

[JohnWilson]

Depends on what type of units you are doing as well. I would much rather have 150 screw retained crowns than 150 single tooth born units

It really shocks me that anyone would debate going digital.

 

[Al.]

It really shocks me that anyone would debate going digital.

That's a stupid thing to say
If a three man lab is struggling to produce less than 30 units a week I think taking a loan for 50 grand could very well be a nail in the coffin.
Me and the wife are struggling, close to divorce. If we have a baby you think that will help the marriage.

 

[JohnWilson]

Actually Al in that frame of mind your reasoning may make sense, but the truth is no tool/technology to make a crown will ever help that individual

I guess I see it like this, How much longer is the guy running a 3 tech lab that is struggling to do 30 units a week going to be in this business?

If it takes 3 techs to produce 30 units a week do you feel they are a viable business? They are dieing with or with out technology and definetly not growing a business. This is assuming they are selling a AVERAGE priced crown and not a high end botique style restoration.

My comments are directed at guys that want to stay in this trade and have a business model that will support it.

I can guarantee the day you get your scanner you will reflect on what has been said and realize that you should have invested a long time sooner. It would and will make you more money than you can imagine and get you away from the bench much sooner in the day.

Also there are tons of options for scanning systems way less than 50k,

BTW I have been called a bunch of things and even a wife or two has called me stupid once or twice so I am used to it

 

[Al.]

I'm never argued against technology. It's just a tool. Or just another piece of equipment.
Problem I see over and over is labs struggling to produce and thinking buying a new expensive piece of equipment is going to bail them out.
I was going to buy a scanner this year and start designing and outsourcing frames. BUT we got carried away and remodeled the old farm house the lab used to be in . I'm tired if making frames so ill by one next year.

My hang up with 3 shape is the annual fees. Like property taxes you never really own it.

 

[Al.]

Btw I have a friend that bought a printer. He said he regrets it now should have gotten a mill.
Said the quality is lower than his hand waxing. For FC he has to refine them and with maintaince it is slower.

 

[Drizzt]

I'm never argued against technology. It's just a tool. Or just another piece of equipment.
Problem I see over and over is labs struggling to produce and thinking buying a new expensive piece of equipment is going to bail them out.
I was going to buy a scanner this year and start designing and outsourcing frames. BUT we got carried away and remodeled the old farm house the lab used to be in . I'm tired if making frames so ill by one next year.

My hang up with 3 shape is the annual fees. Like property taxes you never really own it.

Al , there are many other options from 3shape to do what you do . Cheaper options . Options that will not sell you a overpriced scanner , and then RENT you the software ! This is absurd ! 3shape is the best software , but the hardware is way overpriced , and the annual mandatory fee , that if for any reason you don't pay it , they will LOCK your scanner . For me it is totally unacceptable .

For what you do Al , the cosmetic work and the FMRs and the screw retained , buy a scanner with Exocad .

I scanned and designed with my GC Aadva scanner 35 units for a friend today , that his scanner broke down in 1 hour and 20 something minutes , it is soooo easy to do things with Exocad !

 

[Iownmyjob]

On the high side of his numbers that's 115 crowns a month half PFM and half emax with some FGCs and FCZ in the mix.
That's less than 30 crowns a week. 28.75 to be exact.
IMO that's a part time job for 2 people analog or digital.

Barely enough work to get a scanner for a 3 person lab much less a mill or a printer unless the problem is the removable side is cutting in to the time. Tough to impossible for one person to try to do both and make money with out stress.

Maybe like I said before could use the scanner to out source all the frames and wax ups. Just scan and dsign. Then just stain and layer. BUT then need to be able to make the scanner payment and pay the $2000 +- outsourseing bill. But your time should be freed up.

I looked at October my removeable guy did $8400 in production. I did 20k in C&B. My part time third tech does most the model work and pick up and delivery. We did 15FCC, 8Fcz, 37pfms, 47emax (half layered half mono) 27 of the crowns were implants(higher than normal). After all the bills are paid I make around 40% of our total gross. This was a good month.

 

[elitedentalstudio]

I agree with Lownmyjob. My numbers are right about that I n the crown and bridge doing it by myself as well.

 

[KentPWalton]

I'm never argued against technology. It's just a tool. Or just another piece of equipment.
Problem I see over and over is labs struggling to produce and thinking buying a new expensive piece of equipment is going to bail them out.
I was going to buy a scanner this year and start designing and outsourcing frames. BUT we got carried away and remodeled the old farm house the lab used to be in . I'm tired if making frames so ill by one next year.

My hang up with 3 shape is the annual fees. Like property taxes you never really own it.

That's why Exocad has done so well. One time payment and no annual fees. I can see why the bugs

are flying towards the light in that aspect.

 

[KentPWalton]

Btw I have a friend that bought a printer. He said he regrets it now should have gotten a mill.
Said the quality is lower than his hand waxing. For FC he has to refine them and with maintaince it is slower.

Which printer Al?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Which printer Al?

more to the point why hasn't he sought to refine the design process or at least figured out what the problem was.

the partnership Al seeks would be one where the lab he outsources to would ship him a scanner and a pc and a dongle to try the system for 30 - 60 days, and then negotiate a price that would pay for the scanner within X months (at Y units per month minimum).

 

[Al.]

I looked at October my removeable guy did $8400 in production. I did 20k in C&B. My part time third tech does most the model work and pick up and delivery. We did 15FCC, 8Fcz, 37pfms, 47emax (half layered half mono) 27 of the crowns were implants(higher than normal). After all the bills are paid I make around 40% of our total gross. This was a good month.

So with a scanner I think you could scan design and have bego or Argen make all your metal frames. All the FCZ would save both time to pack and ship and turnaround time but you add time to scan and dsign.
Only thing you could do with emax is scan dsign and have frames milled or printed in wax for you to press. I think your biggest time saver and money maker old be the abutments ?

I think your best time saver would be to convert the pfms over to layered Zir. You'd save a ton of time just scanning and designing Zir frames than just layer them vs wax cast and layer and polish bands fir pfms.

You do about the same as me I just do alot more volume so that is what I will probably do with a scanner.

As is if you could up your FC waxing time for both FGCS and emax that would be huge !

 

[Al.]

I average 3 per hour full contour crowns. That's with the margins sealed as sprued. That is uninterrupted time.
So uninterrupted I wax about 30 units in about 10 hours. Real time that is a day and half to two days total to wax the weeks emax btw 30 to 40. I use the smileline and some times the Ney silicone occlusal molds to wax. Free hand forgetaboutit.
If I had to free hand wax FCs I'd hang myself the first month.

 

[Al.]

Which printer Al?

I don't know , I think it s the cheaper one that has been advertised the last few months.

 

[Al.]

I looked at October my removeable guy did $8400 in production. I did 20k in C&B. My part time third tech does most the model work and pick up and delivery. We did 15FCC, 8Fcz, 37pfms, 47emax (half layered half mono) 27 of the crowns were implants(higher than normal). After all the bills are paid I make around 40% of our total gross. This was a good month.

You have a model person so it's easy for you. Start producing by the week and you can cut your time in half or double your production.
Produce by the day = high stress and low out put

Mon I trim dies and wax pfms Tues emax while pfms are burning out etc. glaze all cases at same time and next Mon morn everything goes out the door in a pile of pans or shipping boxes.
Been doing it that way for over 20 years with the regular 2 week turnaround .

 

[KentPWalton]

I don't know , I think it s the cheaper one that has been advertised the last few months.

Ah..must be the ProJet1200. I haven't heard much about them lately, but have not been

a good product release. Flounder!

 

[rlhhds]

I looked at October my removeable guy did $8400 in production. I did 20k in C&B. My part time third tech does most the model work and pick up and delivery. We did 15FCC, 8Fcz, 37pfms, 47emax (half layered half mono) 27 of the crowns were implants(higher than normal). After all the bills are paid I make around 40% of our total gross. This was a good month.

Convert your pfm doc's to metal free(not always possible but give it a try). Convert as many layered to monolithic. Posterior should be either FCZ or emax not layered. Only layer emax in the anterior if extra charactering is needed otherwise emax press looks really good anywhere with its chameleon effect. Price your pfm's so your monolithic is attractive. Emax is stronger more esthetic than a pfm and less labor, take advantage of it. If you had just a scanner all the units you listed above would be a little over a days work for scanning and designing for 2 techs. Technology maybe expensive looking until you implement it and you will wonder how you got by without it. Look at how much time you would free up to do other things like marketing and growing your client list to support all that new found capacity technology has given you.

 

[Al.]

Convert your pfm doc's to metal free(not always possible but give it a try). Convert as many layered to monolithic. Posterior should be either FCZ or emax not layered. Only layer emax in the anterior if extra charactering is needed otherwise emax press looks really good anywhere with its chameleon effect. Price your pfm's so your monolithic is attractive. Emax is stronger more esthetic than a pfm and less labor, take advantage of it. If you had just a scanner all the units you listed above would be a little over a days work for scanning and designing for 2 techs. Technology maybe expensive looking until you implement it and you will wonder how you got by without it. Look at how much time you would free up to do other things like marketing and growing your client list to support all that new found capacity technology has given you.

Recommending press or mill and stain as much as possible. Layer only when necessary.
That mentality has been a gold mine for so many labs like mine.

Press and stain labs are going to be a dime a dozen in the future IMO.

The competition with that business model is the manufactors getting in the game, chairside mills and glidwell type labs.

There is absolutely nothing to set you apart from the competition with that budiness model except price and turn around time.

Wait till intra oral scanners from Ivoclar or some of the implant manufactors hit offices dirt cheap and have a pop up on the screen that says " would you like a crown back in 3 days " " would you like our $89.99 emax special milled from our multi block ".

 

[Al.]

Maybe it's just me but if my business's was 90% mill or press and stain I would not feel very secure for my future the way technology is advancing.

At the FACD Christan Coachnan who is pushing chairside technology said he thinks ceramists will only be needed for the difficult single anterior. He's sponsored by Ivoclar.

I think some labs are helping to put themselves out of a job focusing on all the simple stuff

 

[CoolHandLuke]

why not, Al ?

a unit that takes only minutes to finish, of which you may produce 10x the volume per hour, nets you a lot more cash per day rather than cash per unit.