help! emax to zirconia prob

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Gomer Pyle

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I'm using zirliner liquid when I do wash fire. Learned this in one of the Ivoclar courses. I make a wet mixture of zirliner liquid and dentin and cover the whole frame whit it (thin layer). After that I dust with OE1 or clear. I do not separate at this point.
 
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Mohammad Khair

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if the zircon substructure has no polished or smoothed surface (specially the margins and the inter-dental space) you don't need any liner, a very thin layer of porcelain body and bake it alone will do the job (focus on the word thin).
i don't like liner anyway, i don't feel comfortable with it.
my build ups were fantastic and need no liner of what so ever type, i use to use so many different brands with no problem.
 
NicelyMKV

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ZirLiner is a 100% necessity with Emax ceram over Zr. 100%. It conditions the surface so Emax ceram will correctly adhere to it.
 
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ZirLiner is a 100% necessity with Emax ceram over Zr. 100%. It conditions the surface so Emax ceram will correctly adhere to it.

what the chemical or the physical reaction does the liner offer ???
i don't buy commercial expressions.
 
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the only thing liner is doing is to improve wet-ability, and so does my thin layer of porcelain body.
if you need it to be higher in temperature, then use porcelain margin instead of body porcelain.
 
Drizzt

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I prefer to stick to the company's instructions . It can be too expensive and time consuming experimenting with a material . They sure know more than me . I am not a chemist so I don't know what the liner does to zirconia , but all I know is I have zero issues with PFZ of any kind following this procedure with e.max ceram . I also have great success with my build ups , with minimal tearing . 90% of my cases up to 3 units are one bake and then glaze .

I'm using zirliner liquid when I do wash fire. Learned this in one of the Ivoclar courses. I make a wet mixture of zirliner liquid and dentin and cover the whole frame whit it (thin layer). After that I dust with OE1 or clear. I do not separate at this point.

Gomer , you might want to try to avoid OE1 for the sprinkle . It can lower your value easily .
 
NicelyMKV

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Below is straight out of the Emax manual. There is no way I would risk negatively effecting the bond strength of any material. What's the difference in applying a zirliner bake as opposed to applying a dentin wash bake like you are now? Same amount of time? Why risk it? Especially due to all the other benefits zirliner has over dentin? Just curious...


What is the purpose of the IPS e.max Ceram ZirLiner?

IPS e.max Ceram ZirLiners are translucent. Their three major purposes are as follows:

They enable a strong, homogeneous bond with the zirconium oxide framework.

They provide the white, non-coloured zirconium oxide frameworks with chroma, an in-depth effect, and a shaded character without increasing their opacity.

They also provide the non-fluorescent zirconium oxide framework with a natural fluorescence, thus enabling the fabrication of lifelike restorations.
 
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Mohammad Khair

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Below is straight out of the Emax manual. There is no way I would risk negatively effecting the bond strength of any material. What's the difference in applying a zirliner bake as opposed to applying a dentin wash bake like you are now? Same amount of time? Why risk it? Especially due to all the other benefits zirliner has over dentin? Just curious...


What is the purpose of the IPS e.max Ceram ZirLiner?

IPS e.max Ceram ZirLiners are translucent. Their three major purposes are as follows:

They enable a strong, homogeneous bond with the zirconium oxide framework.

They provide the white, non-coloured zirconium oxide frameworks with chroma, an in-depth effect, and a shaded character without increasing their opacity.

They also provide the non-fluorescent zirconium oxide framework with a natural fluorescence, thus enabling the fabrication of lifelike restorations.

that is precisely why i don't feel comfortable with it.

strong, homogeneous bond = improve wet-ability
 
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Gomer Pyle

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I prefer to stick to the company's instructions . It can be too expensive and time consuming experimenting with a material . They sure know more than me . I am not a chemist so I don't know what the liner does to zirconia , but all I know is I have zero issues with PFZ of any kind following this procedure with e.max ceram . I also have great success with my build ups , with minimal tearing . 90% of my cases up to 3 units are one bake and then glaze .



Gomer , you might want to try to avoid OE1 for the sprinkle . It can lower your value easily .
Ok, Thanks for the tip. What would you suggest for sprinkle?
 
Drizzt

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Ok, Thanks for the tip. What would you suggest for sprinkle?

I sprinkle with clear . You can also sprinkle with margin , which is the most fluorecent powder of the system , since zirliner's fluorecent sucks .
 
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What is the purpose of the IPS e.max Ceram ZirLiner?

IPS e.max Ceram ZirLiners are translucent. Their three major purposes are as follows:
They enable a strong, homogeneous bond with the zirconium oxide framework.

They provide the white, non-coloured zirconium oxide frameworks with chroma, an in-depth effect, and a shaded character without increasing their opacity.

They also provide the non-fluorescent zirconium oxide framework with a natural fluorescence, thus enabling the fabrication of lifelike restorations.

the liner originally made to hide ugly old white fluorescence zircon, which extincts near dinosaurs age.

now we have all colors for zirconia substructure so we don't need it to change the color characteristics.
they said it does not add to opacity, but every expert knows it does add to opacity.

the only benefit left to the liner is to improve wetting of the ceramic slurry to the zirconia framework.
which is easy to achieve by so many other methods.

just don't polish or smooth the framework is a very good effective way to do so.
and add a very thin layer of whatever porcelain you like and slow dry well then bake it (better to bake it 10* to 20* less than its original final temp) so you will not have a very shiny gloss surface or simply use margin porcelain.

best wishes
 
Drizzt

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Mohammad , can you please explain more about the polishing thing ? I have seen that the surface after zir liner is like it is sandblasted , and when I put the glaze liquid for sprinkling it , the liquid actually stays in place . Same goes for the porcelain . If I have a polished surface , the surface tension makes things a lot more difficult . And baking at that high of temperature , acts like a re-generation cycle for zirconia as well . In any case , I still stick to it . I feel safer than experimenting .
 
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Mohammad Khair

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Mohammad , can you please explain more about the polishing thing ? I have seen that the surface after zir liner is like it is sandblasted , and when I put the glaze liquid for sprinkling it , the liquid actually stays in place . Same goes for the porcelain . If I have a polished surface , the surface tension makes things a lot more difficult . And baking at that high of temperature , acts like a re-generation cycle for zirconia as well . In any case , I still stick to it . I feel safer than experimenting .

yes sure,
we get the zircon framework milled and sinterd, the milling bur make micro grooves all over the surface,
those groves is tiny and parallel and those grooves are idle to receive the porcelain.
when we were doing PFM, we were afraid of any micro grooves or sharp corners because they may propagate a crack.
those cracks actually caused by flexibility of the metal framework and by the assistance of those sharp corners and grooves.
now with zircon we don't have such flexibility, indeed the framework of the zircon would mostly brake before propagating a crack if its bent out.
so we should not be afraid of those micro grooves and elevations.
that's mean the best surface we can get is the sinterd milled surface just right out of the sinter furnace.
the main problem with the milling is the margins,
all dental cad consider that and offset the margins to avoid chip off during milling.
and this offset must be polished down to get the perfect fit.
if we cancel the offset or bring it near 0 we are risking the margins during milling.
also we always prefer a deeper interdental space, so we mostly adjust that area after milling.

since zirconia is extremely hard material, then any abrasive material in the lab will smooth the zirconia or polish it, it wont roughen it.

those polished and smooth areas are our nightmare when building up porcelain, because of the wetting issue.

to solve all of those problems, we should do the following:

first we need to avoid any smoothing or polishing, simply by good design and by using diamond infused stone(looks green or white we can find it easy , with any distributor.
that is the best to adjust zirconia with minimum smoothing.

now to make our build up of porcelain easier and problem free, we should make wash layer to zirconia framework, the wash layer must not give a shiny surface and its better to have a higher temp than the body and enamel porcelain.

so its good to use margin porcelain because the manufacturers of porcelain add little amount of bender and flux material to it so it will not deform during multi bake.

and this will give it a matt surface after firing which we are looking for, that surface will make building up porcelain with easy.

some technique use some sort of liquid and sprinkle on some powder, personally i don't like this way.
however, it is fast and working well.

i like to mix a margin porcelain with its liquid make it a little thick mixture and apply it unevenly on a thin layer, dry it slowly and bake it about 10* less than its final temp recommended by its manufacture.

hopefully this will help
best wishes
 
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the porcelain furnaces are vary so does the porcelain material,
try to do some experiments playing with the final temp and the holding time to reach the optimum result (the wash layer should not be neither under-fired nor over-fired).
 
Drizzt

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I used to do that with VITA VM9 . But this whole procedure you are describing , zirliner is doing the same . After firing it , surface is matt , no wetting issue of any kind . You can put your porcelain where you want , and it will stay there . Plus you add fluoresense , and according to Ivoclar , enhance the bond .

After that , I am doing the sprinkling firing , and this is how I solved the pulled up margins prpblem with ziconia . I am doing the same with metal when I use paste opaque .
 
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Mohammad Khair

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I used to do that with VITA VM9 . But this whole procedure you are describing , zirliner is doing the same . After firing it , surface is matt , no wetting issue of any kind . You can put your porcelain where you want , and it will stay there . Plus you add fluoresense , and according to Ivoclar , enhance the bond .

After that , I am doing the sprinkling firing , and this is how I solved the pulled up margins prpblem with ziconia . I am doing the same with metal when I use paste opaque .

the ivoclar liner is changing the color and the opacity which is something i don't like.
if you fire 2 crowns with different technique with a thin porcelain layer at the margin u should notice that.
also i don't like to increase my porcelain kit with no real need.

by the way i like your work and i think your doing just very fine, and most likely u don't need to change anything.

i just don't feel comfortable with liner.
 
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the margin porcelain wash layer will look ugly at first but will improve the look after multi firing.
and you can do it multi shades and multi internal stains.
 
rkm rdt

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Why bring your porcelain down to the margin?
 
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Why bring your porcelain down to the margin?

very good question, to answer this we need to see a picture of your work where you didn't bring porcelain down to the margin and would be great if the shade of that case is light color.
 
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