Full contour zirconia.

[NicelyMKV]

"I wonder if transparency is what effects value? The more transparent, the lower the value? Where translucency may maintain a higher value?"

Call yourself a ceramist!

In order to maintain value and have translucency you need opalescence. ZR or emax dosent have that unfortunately so the more translucent the lower the value yes.

thats what the OE powders are for in your emax ceram kit.

"The fluorescent glazes can raise value slightly"

yep that's what fluorescence does, thats why the margin materials are fluorescent.

thanks Paul! I just always called it translucency. I realized opal effect powders and ingots where used to control value. I just didn't think about fluorescent glazes and stains possibly raising value even though it goes along with the basic properties. I was using fluorescent glaze on FCZ due to the lack of it within the material. I just noticed a very slight higher value and lighter color after the fact. Talked to some people in the know and my results were confirmed.

I was just told one of the FCZ materials I have actually has a mild fluorescence to it? I'll let you know which one after I confirm that it's a fact

 

[Al.]

Interesting thing for my laundry soap, I make sure I buy soap without fluorescents added to wash my hunting cloths.
The fluorescent pigments soak up ultraviolet light then emit them again. Especially at low light your clothes can glow, last thing I want when I'm up in a tree ambushing Bambi.

 

[karabear]

I realize this is neither scientific nor apples to apples, but two of these are from major players. "Will the real imposter please stand up ..."

 

[Ken Knapp]

With respect to science. I beleive 3M is unsurpassed in the dental area, with respect to accurate and near peer reviewed data. They are one of the few companies that publish data with statistics, mean, sigma and error bars on their graphs. I am not marketing 3M's product just their science and what they stand for, uncompromised quality in every way.

In short I beleive all of the present leading zirconia's are about the same in optical transmission, unshaded. Presently the key differintiator is shading and how you shade. 3M new zirconia Plus and shaded material is higher in transmission shaded compared to the other manufacturers. Dipping your crowns will have a lower transmission compared to brushing the stains. However the brushed stains are only surface deep.
We all want the best zirconia product and price. Keep the manufacturers honest to deliver the best product and not just marketing data.

Ken Knapp
Knapp Laboratories

 

[NicelyMKV]

Good stuff Ken

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

for the majority of posterior cases which have been Rx'd for FCZr as opposed to PFM, not once has an office nit-picked on the translucency factor y'all are comparing. As long as it's more vital looking than an under-prepared PFM crown, it's an easy sale.

I think you're all splitting hairs on a factor that's at the bottom of the food chain when an office is making a buying decision on this type of restoration. IMO

 

[paulg100]

totally agree.

These are bottom $$ commodity crowns (if not yet then very soon will be).

Docs are buying these primarily based on price and thats it. As long is it looks OK and fits thats all there worried about.

Id still only suggest these as a possible FGC replacement if the patient refused gold, and they look better than gold regardless.

Having said that, if you have clients that will accept these turds as a PFM replacement, and can pump volume out via cad/cam then more power to ya.

 

[NicelyMKV]

for the majority of posterior cases which have been Rx'd for FCZr as opposed to PFM, not once has an office nit-picked on the translucency factor y'all are comparing. As long as it's more vital looking than an under-prepared PFM crown, it's an easy sale.

I think you're all splitting hairs on a factor that's at the bottom of the food chain when an office is making a buying decision on this type of restoration. IMO

You realize I'm totally bald, right bobby?? I get what your saying. I just try to get the best out of whatever material I am using. More for the patient than the Doctor. To the best of my abilities anyway... And based on what restoration type the Doctor prescribed.

 

[NicelyMKV]

I did talk one account that was prescribing FCZ anteriors into doing layered Zr. I'm not doing anymore of that.

 

[karabear]

What would make this full contour zirconia crown for a bleaching patient look this bad or is this par?

 

[JohnWilson]

I think the Canadian has a point here that many of us lost sight of after dropping big bucks on a system.

This material fills a need, this material looks better today that it did 2 years ago. This material is constantly improving and has a higher profit margin in my lab than pressed EMAX. I would be thrilled if all we did were singles all day long. For the following reasons.

1) Any client that has done FCZ restorations with any of the big labs will see a night and day difference between theirs and ours.
2) Any client that uses this as a FGC replacement will be sold on the price/esthetic's
3) Any client looking for a cost effect flat rate unit will love this restorations over metal ceramics
4) Any client submitting for an ALL CERAMIC restoration to INS-CO over metal ceramic is getting more money
5) The remake factor has been non existent
6) Less TECH labor
7) Higher consistency with less stress than any other restoration we offer to date.

Can you see the benefits?

 

[corona]

I wonder if transparency is what effects value? The more transparent, the lower the value? Where translucency may maintain a higher value?

yes

 

[corona]

I think the Canadian has a point here that many of us lost sight of after dropping big bucks on a system.

This material fills a need, this material looks better today that it did 2 years ago. This material is constantly improving and has a higher profit margin in my lab than pressed EMAX. I would be thrilled if all we did were singles all day long. For the following reasons.

1) Any client that has done FCZ restorations with any of the big labs will see a night and day difference between theirs and ours.
2) Any client that uses this as a FGC replacement will be sold on the price/esthetic's
3) Any client looking for a cost effect flat rate unit will love this restorations over metal ceramics
4) Any client submitting for an ALL CERAMIC restoration to INS-CO over metal ceramic is getting more money
5) The remake factor has been non existent
6) Less TECH labor
7) Higher consistency with less stress than any other restoration we offer to date.

Can you see the benefits?

totally see the benefits john , but what ever happened to the esthetics ???? Are doctors and labs overlooking that for what is hot and profitable right now ??? I do FCZ , dont like the way they look now .... but as with anything else, give me a few under my belt and i will find a way to improve the esthetics unless the manufacture beats me to it ...in which case now i have to retool or buy new block....(hopefully just buy new blocks and no retooling ) . The only thing holding FCZ monolithic from really exploding is the esthetics . If someone nails that down ...well then emax will finally have competetion .

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, I was wondering if you know how Bruxzir is manufactured? Is it isostatically pressed etc?

No, it is not pressed. It uses a colloidal process. It also starts out as the highest grade material Tosoh sells. They then put it through a size reduction process to further refine it, using a high-tech attritor. The difference in the material before and after processing is amazing to see in person.

The whole process is so unique the people from Tosoh came to Newport Beach and gave them an award for best new zirconia product innovation. I can only laugh when I see some of the other materials being compared to it.

 

[Mark Jackson]

The only thing holding FCZ monolithic from really exploding is the esthetics . If someone nails that down ...well then emax will finally have competetion .

If you are using counterfeit materials, or cheap imitations, they will not look as good as the real thing. They have absolutely KILLED the PFM in my lab. We are almost 90% monolithic. BruxZir in the posterior, emax in the anterior. Screw retained BruxZir like mad at a flat rate price, and we can barely meet the due dates.

The bottom line is, the patient and the doctors decide what they want, and you can fight it, and stomp your feet, but the reality is, the cheese has been moved again. And the NBT is right around the corner...

 

[NicelyMKV]

No, it is not pressed. It uses a colloidal process. It also starts out as the highest grade material Tosoh sells. They then put it through a size reduction process to further refine it, using a high-tech attritor. The difference in the material before and after processing is amazing to see in person.

The whole process is so unique the people from Tosoh came to Newport Beach and gave them an award for best new zirconia product innovation. I can only laugh when I see some of the other materials being compared to it.

Interesting. So it's a slurry put into a mold? I'm asking because one of my accounts had been told by a large Bruxzir lab, that Bruxzir is much more dense than all other FCZ. That if you cut others in half, you would see microscopic voids? I told the doctor that my material, weiland Zenostar, was isostatically pressed. Not sure if hot it cold, but I doubted there would be any more "voids" than the Bruxzir material. I was told Wieland, Bruxzir and one other all come from the top material available. Nothing against Bruxzir, I just don't agree that if you don't use it, your using a cheap imitation.

 

[JohnWilson]

I do agree that like many products in this industry their is a tier of good, better, best, as it relates to materials we use. Just about all of the names of Zirconia that are being discussed here can not compare to Bruxzir when it comes to the amount of testing that has been done on it. Everyone that wants to bash Glidewell you have to realize with out him there would be no FCZ. With that being said anyone that has invested in a the bruxzir names has an obligation to maintain the name. Does that mean its a superior product and everything else is below par, HELL NO.

Call my Zenostar anything you want, all I know is that its making some very nice crowns for my clients and their patients,

On a side note a few clients are getting a bit pissed when I call and request that they send a new lab slip with the proper product name on it Bruxzir has done a wonderful job branding itself and god knows I am not competing with that name/trademark.

 

[rkm rdt]

I prefer a less translucent zirconia when fabricating a hybrid abutment.

 

[NicelyMKV]

I prefer a less translucent zirconia when fabricating a hybrid abutment.

I do the same

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

What would make this full contour zirconia crown for a bleaching patient look this bad or is this par? View attachment 3814

this Zr crown is too opacious overall.....if you're tryin to blend to a bleached tooth...... don't shoot for a whiter Zr or dentin...... focus on the enamel ceramics and layer it .....