Full contour zirconia.

[NicelyMKV]

What would make this full contour zirconia crown for a bleaching patient look this bad or is this par? View attachment 3814

Well, they usually look bad in photos anyway. That does not look right though? Almost looks slightly under sintered? Is this one you did? How did it look in the lab before you sent it out? I worked on my sintering programs and really saw a big change when manipulating heat rate and hold times.


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[Al.]

If you are using counterfeit materials, or cheap imitations, they will not look as good as the real thing.

Ha Ha Ha, Would you like a Pepsi or Coke, Sprite 7UP or Mtn Dew.
Ford F 150, Chevy Silverado or a Toyota Tundra. Mustang GT, Camaro Z28, Challanger Hemi.

Your argument is as silly as me saying my Harley is the only true bike on the road and the Rice Burners are counterfeit imitations of my Real and original Big Iron. Truth is the rice burners run circles around me performance wise. Mine has got Style and Sound and alot of hype. Kind of the way I see Bruxir compared to some of the new stuff coming out.
So is Bruxir, Coke or Pepsi or mabey its an RC Cola ?

 

[karabear]

Well, they usually look bad in photos anyway. That does not look right though? Almost looks slightly under sintered? Is this one you did? How did it look in the lab before you sent it out? I worked on my sintering programs and really saw a big change when manipulating heat rate and hold times.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I don't want to hijack the thread, (perhaps IM?),but yes, sadly, it is mine. It actually looks like that in the mouth. It is a chamfer margin with minimal facial reduction, high end zirconia with the recommended sintering program. Are shoulders no longer necessary with these? I layered and it looks the same.

 

[Al.]

I think the Canadian has a point here that many of us lost sight of after dropping big bucks on a system.

This material fills a need, this material looks better today that it did 2 years ago. This material is constantly improving and has a higher profit margin in my lab than pressed EMAX. I would be thrilled if all we did were singles all day long. For the following reasons.

1) Any client that has done FCZ restorations with any of the big labs will see a night and day difference between theirs and ours.
2) Any client that uses this as a FGC replacement will be sold on the price/esthetic's
3) Any client looking for a cost effect flat rate unit will love this restorations over metal ceramics
4) Any client submitting for an ALL CERAMIC restoration to INS-CO over metal ceramic is getting more money
5) The remake factor has been non existent
6) Less TECH labor
7) Higher consistency with less stress than any other restoration we offer to date.

Can you see the benefits?

I see the benefits.

Im sure I could sell the heck out of FCZ.
My only thoughts are the profit margins and work load because of the need to do a higher volume of single units and the very high initial investment.

I got my first FCZ last week. I sent off the whole model to have it made.
I figure I will make $50 for a stain and glaze that is after shipping costs. Pretty good for minimal work. Mabey 15 min ?

BUT, I can fabricate, 6 really jam up anterior layered emax full crns or veneers. With all the characteristics in them. Halos all the other BS. Say a middle of the road price of 225 a unit. $1350 the case will bill at that price.
$50 for materials, then shipping, The rest my labor.

I Would have to do 25 posterior single unit FCZ to make the same profit. That seems like much more labor for me.
25 impressions/cases to log in, disinfect, model work , billing and organizing, then ship out. Stain and glaze the bunch in a organized way by shade.

In my eyes that is much more work than One impression and case in my hands to deal with. Of course that isnt considering the machine maintance and milling process if I milled in house.

Im just thinking out loud. Is my thinking off?

 

[JohnWilson]

Hi Al,

God knows you have talent, I have been singing your praises for years, what FCZ has added to my lab is a profitable economical product that I was unable to produce in the past with other materials. Its initial investment is large, but if you start by outsourcing and gain a foot hold your ROI will be quickly met. The CAP calculator will give you some good information.

My lab never went after this segment of the market place as it was not real profitable and on top of that was seriously more stressful. The guys wanting the lowest price were generally the worst clients the most demanding and the slowest to pay. I said the hell with that demo and looked for other areas of the market that was not fraught with these challenges.

The reason many mid to larger style labs do so well with CAD/CAM aside from the flat rate pricing with no alloy spikes is the fact that the design library kicks there best ceramics ass when it comes to consistency. THE PFM is dieing with this style lab because their clients are getting better fit and contacts and occlusion with CAD/CAM. We all know that the majority of clients on single posteriors want the units to drop to place with little to no occ adjustment. If the hue is semi correct it gets cemented.

FCZ does this, and the pig it used to look like has somehow wandered into Glamor-Shots and is surprising the hell out of a lot of people.

The amount of profit per unit and the minimal amount of hands on tech time now makes this segment of the market more attractive. On top of that offering your best clients another option has proven to be a valuable addition to my laboratory. Adding on to these benefits is the throughput we have now. I was always lucky to be able to have a 10day turn around time, as we have talked in the past any good office can't get patients back inside of this so having quicker turn around time in my opinion just gives the DR something to nit pick prior to the appointment. With that being said having the ability to not stress out, when things get busy and allow my most skilled techs to do the HIGH END stuff has allowed the labs sales to really jump. Knowing that the time consuming singles that were taking away from these techs time is now still being produced but in a different manner has allowed again better moral in my lab as well.

Last month approx #s

68% EMAX
24% METAL CERAMICS
8% FCZ

This month the the projected numbers based on scheduled work

52% EMAX
27% FCZ
21% METAL CERAMICS

Thats a huge jump for us, the only people that I see that should really hate these materials are the Alloy Companies. I am sure I will be very disappointed when I get my refining check.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Kind of the way I see Bruxir compared to some of the new stuff coming out.
So is Bruxir, Coke or Pepsi or mabey its an RC Cola ?

BruxZir is unique, and was designed for this purpose. Most of the competitive products are simply relabeled to piggyback on the success. I have tried all (or most) of them, because I actually toyed with the idea of private labeling my own product. Frankly, mo matter what system I tried, they just couldn't compare to the results we got with BruxZir.

I'm not just blowing smoke here. I have more experience with this than just about anybody so I'm speaking based on my personal observations. I also am one of those people who don't mix and match materials to try and get better results, and a put a lot of weight on the science that goes into product development.

Some people will just poo-poo the product because of where it was developed. I'm well past that. FWIW..

 

[CoolHandLuke]

I don't want to hijack the thread, (perhaps IM?),but yes, sadly, it is mine. It actually looks like that in the mouth. It is a chamfer margin with minimal facial reduction, high end zirconia with the recommended sintering program. Are shoulders no longer necessary with these? I layered and it looks the same.

what was your method of colouring this crown?

 

[Ken Knapp]

Monolithic %:

What is the monolithic zirconia unit sales in the USA and CA?

My guess for Fixed crown & Bridges, currently:

>PFM 65%
>Metal 10%
>All Ceramic 25%:
..(Veneered 15%)
..(Monolithic 10%)
....(emax 7%)
....(Zirconia 3%)

What are your thoughts about the present crown and bridge market breakdown with respect to monolithic zirconia and emax?

Ken Knapp
Knapp Laboratories

 

[Al.]

BruxZir is unique, and was designed for this purpose. Most of the competitive products are simply relabeled to piggyback on the success. I have tried all (or most) of them, because I actually toyed with the idea of private labeling my own product. Frankly, mo matter what system I tried, they just couldn't compare to the results we got with BruxZir.

I'm not just blowing smoke here. I have more experience with this than just about anybody so I'm speaking based on my personal observations. I also am one of those people who don't mix and match materials to try and get better results, and a put a lot of weight on the science that goes into product development.

Some people will just poo-poo the product because of where it was developed. I'm well past that. FWIW..

Yes cant and dont want to argue with you, but Bruxzir wont be able to keep the market cornered for long. Sooner than late,r it will be just be another brand of FCZ. Esp with the big manufactors in it now.

Used to go buy a pair of "Levis", now you buy a pair of Jeans. Levis was the "Original" and Im sure they thought that Wrangler was "piggybacking" or a "cheap imitation" or "counterfiet".
Wendys tried 'Wheres The Beef" with some sucess but your name calling the competetion IMO will drive people to other brands not towards yours.

Nike says 'Just Do It". They dont say Adidas sucks. They demonstrate how good their product is, not bash the competition.

Just my 4 cents. (LOL I have to up Nicelys 3 cents)

 

[NicelyMKV]

The big box labs selling Bruxzir for 99 bucks are degrading the product name in my area. It is considered a cheap crown. Where my material is being marketed as a high end material.

 

[ParkwayDental]

The big box labs selling Bruxzir for 99 bucks are degrading the product name in my area. It is considered a cheap crown. Where my material is being marketed as a high end material.

Not I, lol we get good money for ours.

 

[JohnWilson]

I agree Jason, I am not low balling it but it is the least expensive all ceramic unit in my lab.

I gave a promotional discount on the product to SHOW guys what FCZ was that had not used it, it was considerably higher than what the competition was charging for their REGULAR rate. Once out of the First months promo the clients are still asking for it and at the REGULAR price now which I would bet is close to what some guys are selling EMAX s&g for.

I am not looking back

 

[NicelyMKV]

I agree Jason, I am not low balling it but it is the least expensive all ceramic unit in my lab.

I gave a promotional discount on the product to SHOW guys what FCZ was that had not used it, it was considerably higher than what the competition was charging for their REGULAR rate. Once out of the First months promo the clients are still asking for it and at the REGULAR price now which I would bet is close to what some guys are selling EMAX s&g for.

I am not looking back

That a baby

 

[ts4341]

What would make this full contour zirconia crown for a bleaching patient look this bad or is this par? View attachment 3814

Sorry, but this is not a FCZ case.. I would slam dunk this one with E.Max T

 

[Mark Jackson]

Yes cant and dont want to argue with you, but Bruxzir wont be able to keep the market cornered for long.

I agree 100%. There are some good products out there now that are gaining and will probably push the boundries of the material. There are also some hybrid materials out there that are fortified with aluminum oxide and other trace materials to improve the characteristics. There will be an emax challenger soon.

I have always said that ceramics are just a stepping stone to resins.

My money and my sights are on the resins. Much like Lava, this product has enjoyed a good four year run and now the copycat products have diluted the market. My BruxZir are selling at 15% above the market average, so I'm not playing the price game. I need something new, and resin is the NBT, and monolithic, which is EXACTLY what I want.

 

[paulg100]

"Well, they usually look bad in photos anyway"

which means they usually look bad in the mouth.

"How did it look in the lab before you sent it out?"

most of what ive seen looks fine/pretty good in the lab. stick em in the mouth...ugh!

Like Al said id much rather spend my time booking in 1 job, making one set of models and 10 veneers.

But thats from a single man/small lab perspective.

For larger production labs this is one of the best restorations to hit town ever.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Mark, are you not concerned about resins staining after time in the mouth? That's what a lot of my clients were complaining about with composite crowns. I briefly fabricated some composite crowns. Used light cured glaze etc. I had decent feed back but they had already wanted to move away from it due to previous experiences.

 

[paulg100]

thought that was the big deal about LAVA ultimate. because its a porcelain-composite hybrid, it dose'nt stain like regular composite.. supposedly

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, are you not concerned about resins staining after time in the mouth? That's what a lot of my clients were complaining about with composite crowns. I briefly fabricated some composite crowns. Used light cured glaze etc. I had decent feed back but they had already wanted to move away from it due to previous experiences.

The new resins are nothing like the old composites. It's very, very dense, which is why the material is milled and not stacked. They are two completely different animals. Some of the newer ones are even using colored filler particles in the appropriate shade, with a trilux layer and incisal translucency that is amazing. The ceramic particles are actually sintered and infiltrated with resin.

More like inceram than resin. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[NicelyMKV]

The new resins are nothing like the old composites. It's very, very dense, which is why the material is milled and not stacked. They are two completely different animals. Some of the newer ones are even using colored filler particles in the appropriate shade, with a trilux layer and incisal translucency that is amazing. The ceramic particles are actually sintered and infiltrated with resin.

More like inceram than resin. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Just found that out talking to them earlier today.