Anyone still doing old school (not pressed) PFM porcelain margins?

[Affinity]

Thanks for pics and instructions Russ, i have often wondered how willie geller creates his HUGE margins almost a third of the crown i suspect he uses a similar technique?

I cant speak for Willi, but I know that Olivier Tric uses refractory dies for his butts. I would suspect a similar technique from a euro-tech... works really well though, I just fixed a broken emax crown from another lab with this technique. Probably 4-5mm broken off the lingual of an temp-cemented implant crown. Worked like a charm. Seems much faster and cheaper than platinum foil..

 

[DeVreugd]

There are many "roads to Rome". All will get you there. Pick the one that is consistent and one you have mastered. Make sure your time and materials are compensated for in your fee structure.

 

[Affinity]

do you ever break the margin peeling the foil off? Does it ever stick to the foil?

 

[thewhitelab]

Refactory sounds like a good technique also, do you just duplicate the working dies? is there a problem with expansion? does the crown move or pop off the prep when firing?

 

[SiKBOY]

Everyone here is talking about old school ways of doing margins, and nothing wrong with any of them...but its a whole lot easier, faster, more precise to wax and press. TheLabGuy in another post had asked why anyone would wax & press in general, when its as quick for some of us to stack...porcelain margins are one reason. The other situation I use that technique is doing a pfm under a partial. As for SiKBOY and the wax/powder technique..No. Done it, some success, but- why. Ive already pulled out some hair and dont want to start the habit of banging my head on the bench. I have a friend who insists on using whip mix hightemp liquid to mix his shoulders...says it freezes in place so hard you can carve it, and burns out clean. What ever.

I like using the wax mixed with porc because I can wax it and carve it to shape to the margin, just like I was going to wax a gold crown or emax/empress. Also when I take off the crown off from the die, its less likely that my margin will flake off.

I guess I see it as, if I only do my porc margin with only my brush work, its not as accurate. Kind of like building the whole crown up with only a brush and not using your handpiece/burs on it after its fired.

 

[DeVreugd]

do you ever break the margin peeling the foil off? Does it ever stick to the foil?

Knock on wood ! Never had a margin break while removing the foil. I place the crowns in a cup of water. Using a new #25 BP blade, start at one side and peel off. It will come off quickly. More scrap pt.
Another advantage with this technique, not all shoulders need to be at 90 degrees. Notice this canine has a very deep angle on margin, the marginal edge is sharp because of pt. support.

 

[2thbob]

Knocking on wood doesnt belong in our industry. We need to tell the Doctors when a porc. butt margin cant be done. Just because we 'can' do it doesnt mean it should be. The chances of failure are high. Just because it was seated doesnt mean the end of the story. Its not good business, its not fair to the dentist or espesially to the patient. I imagine that every case I do is going in my mouth. If we let one impression slide by, we're saying "sloppy spoken here", and weve set a new standard. A lower one. For You, the dentist, our industry... leave the toyota crowns over-seas.

 

[DeVreugd]

Knocking on wood doesnt belong in our industry. We need to tell the Doctors when a porc. butt margin cant be done. Just because we 'can' do it doesnt mean it should be. The chances of failure are high. Just because it was seated doesnt mean the end of the story. Its not good business, its not fair to the dentist or espesially to the patient. I imagine that every case I do is going in my mouth. If we let one impression slide by, we're saying "sloppy spoken here", and weve set a new standard. A lower one. For You, the dentist, our industry... leave the toyota crowns over-seas.

Whoa !!! easy does it!

 

[kcdt]

Knocking on wood doesnt belong in our industry. We need to tell the Doctors when a porc. butt margin cant be done. Just because we 'can' do it doesnt mean it should be. The chances of failure are high. Just because it was seated doesnt mean the end of the story. Its not good business, its not fair to the dentist or espesially to the patient. I imagine that every case I do is going in my mouth. If we let one impression slide by, we're saying "sloppy spoken here", and weve set a new standard. A lower one. For You, the dentist, our industry... leave the toyota crowns over-seas.

A. Russell doesn't turn out poor products- that those words escape your mouth shows how little you know the person you insulted.
He is in fact one of the most gifted educators and technicians I've ever had the pleasure of learning from, So cool your jets.

B. What's up with the Aryan Nations flag on your avatar? That's pretty FU.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Knocking on wood doesnt belong in our industry. We need to tell the Doctors when a porc. butt margin cant be done. Just because we 'can' do it doesnt mean it should be. The chances of failure are high. Just because it was seated doesnt mean the end of the story. Its not good business, its not fair to the dentist or espesially to the patient. I imagine that every case I do is going in my mouth. If we let one impression slide by, we're saying "sloppy spoken here", and weve set a new standard. A lower one. For You, the dentist, our industry... leave the toyota crowns over-seas.

Wow!!!!
If you were trying to make a point here, other than dissing a Master Ceramist, I'm not sure what it was.........seriously, Russ doesn't need an introduction ........ he ranks up there with the greatest of all time of folks who teach what they preach and his skills are a daily inspiration in my lab and many others throughout the industry. At the least, give the guy an apology, and lose that ignorant avatar you've got a hold of there as well.

 

[Al.]

A. Russell doesn't turn out poor products- that those words escape your mouth shows how little you know the person you insulted.
He is in fact one of the most gifted educators and technicians I've ever had the pleasure of learning from, So cool your jets.

Wow!!!!
If you were trying to make a point here, other than dissing a Master Ceramist, I'm not sure what it was.........seriously, Russ doesn't need an introduction ........ he ranks up there with the greatest of all time of folks who teach what they preach and his skills are a daily inspiration in my lab and many others throughout the industry. At the least, give the guy an apology, and lose that ignorant avatar you've got a hold of there as well.

DITTO !!!

 

[2thbob]

Im not disrespecting anyone. Im saying just because a Dr. gives an impression and askes for somthing, its our job to give him feed back and say its not acceptable. If its going to be likely to fail, the Dr. and patient need to know. No matter how good we can do the work, its only on a model. Even if we're willing to roll the dice on its longevity, we're telling the doctor that this is now acceptable. As for input on everything else... Im not a 'hater'. In a country that embraces diversity, everyone should understand that diversity means different. Im from north- west european heritage. Born here (USA) and very American in all my ways. Best buds are African and Sioux indian. Im not ashamed of my color...even though the cencus asked if I was white...and I denied it. Color-wise, Im more pink. I think they meant to ask if I was caucasian. After I re-read my post I can see how it sounded insulting, but that wasnt the intent. Just sayin...Sorry Doc..need a new prep or a different crown option.

 

[2thbob]

Woops. Just did some reading...didnt realize that avatar was used by a group founded by a democrat full of supremacists. Im not a supremacist.

 

[BillyB]

So? How do you do porcelain margins?

just because a Dr. gives an impression and askes for somthing, its our job to give him feed back and say its not acceptable. If its going to be likely to fail, the Dr. and patient need to know. No matter how good we can do the work, its only on a model. Even if we're willing to roll the dice on its longevity, we're telling the doctor that this is now acceptable.

....

Just sayin...Sorry Doc..need a new prep or a different crown option.

Please, do tell.

,
Billy

 

[toof makr]

Wax-on...Wax-off

the waxing technique...(from Brix)

TIPZ&techs

i don't know if this is going to work...here's a link to the thread w/ my slideshow...has a bunch of stuff in there...

here's the PM bit...

afterwards...build on top of that...and fire


anyway...if you just view the slideshow...it's easier...
here's a link to it...
"Slide-Show"
(after yo get to the next screen...click "slideshow" in the top left hand corner)
hope this helps...?!?! (sure wish i could html)

 

[charles007]

Way to go Rick, I love going to Slide Show Movies, and not even leaving
the house.........

Love to see some of your anterior porn Slide Shows

How many firing on the margin material ?

 

[toof makr]

Way to go Rick, I love going to Slide Show Movies, and not even leaving
the house.........

Love to see some of your anterior porn Slide Shows

How many firing on the margin material ?

ZERO...
you don't fire it...after application...in wax...build right on top of that...THEN fire it...honestly, for best results...and...less shrinkage...put the "first" PM application on w/ a brush...porc...distilled H2O...fire that...
THEN...use the wax (w/ porc in it)...then build...then fire...

the crown fotod did not have additional firings...or a correction in glaze on margin...it went in the oven for opaque...the build...correction...glaze...
TOTAL = 4 times

if i could get the slideshows to upload...i would love to post more...
to do this was a real PAIN...much simpler to "upload slideshow"...and then...you guyz "could" just view them from here...

i used the "wraps"...embedded...anything that was on the "how to" page...
nothing worked...

btw..."Thanx" for viewing...

 

[DMC]

Way to go Rick, I love going to Slide Show Movies, and not even leaving
the house.........

Love to see some of your anterior porn Slide Shows

How many firing on the margin material ?

Yeah, what he said.....

 

[Lthompson]

i may be missing something here but please full me in. once the impregnated wax is applied over the margin how is the wax removed?

 

[dmonwaxa]

I think the wax is vaporized during the bake cycle