Anyone still doing old school (not pressed) PFM porcelain margins?

[BillyB]

What margin porcelain(s) and liquid(s) are y'all using?

on edit: Forgot to add - separators?

to all
Billy

 

[Toast]

Everyday; d.sign porc with d.sign med. build up liquid and DVA Very Special Separator.

 

[toof makr]

still using the old unitek 3M...PM kit...SHOFU...whatever you want to call it...

H2O...DISTILLED...NO liquid...
sep - the BLUE pen by DVA,,,after i coat it twice w/ the GREEN pen...
the green is a die conditioner...the blue is a separator...
that is...if i'm not "waxing" them on...!!!
(i do this routinely)...apply the first bake with dry-powder tech...fire that...wax the 2nd coat on...and build right over that...fire all that on the next bake...contour...glaze...correct in glaze if need be...

 

[AL1]

I have an account, thats all he wants is porc.marg. I use creation porc. and their marg. porc. The only die sealer I use is what I put on from using die sealer when prepping dies for copings. I use some old separator that I have from some margin hardening kit. If you are having trouble you can mix a small amount of non filled resin with your por. and zap it with a curing light. I just use Creations marg. liquid.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Do them every day........
d.sign margin powder/liquid and use the IPS (empress) Ceramic separator (works great).

 

[charles007]

Everyday, even in my sleep.......
I use Renferts Hartebad-"Hardening Bath" its a little thinner than other margin die hardeners, I've tried. Separator pen by Vita, Ivoclar and Renfert, they go on thinner than the brush-on type. Creation porcelain margin liquid, has a 3 minute dry time. Good tip, use a hair dryer or heat under your porcelain muffle, to set the porcelain margin liquid,really helps on bridges with several margins.

 

[SiKBOY]

Everyday!.

Superglue as a margin hardener.
Straight up tap water as liquid.
Picosep as seperator. You can blast ALL of the picosep off the die with an airgun and somehow it still seperates. I have no idea how, but it does.

 

[toof makr]

Everyday!.

say...i see your "handle"...??? (Train Spotting...???)

 

[SiKBOY]

Everyday!.

say...i see your "handle"...??? (Train Spotting...???)

Nah, Everyone says that actually but I got that nick before the movie came out.
Its kind of my car license plates.

 

[DeVreugd]

.0005 pt foil for me. Spot weld to framework. It will hold up through all firing steps. Really supports the porcelain edge of margin from rounding.

Russ

 

[thewhitelab]

Hi Russ,
I like the idea you describe using pt foil for your margins, would you please describe in further detail this technique. also comment on using a spot welder?
is this similar to the ones used for ortho?

Thanks in advance
Adam

 

[SiKBOY]

Does anyone use wax mixed with their porc for the final margin fire?

 

[TheLabGuy]

.0005 pt foil for me. Spot weld to framework. It will hold up through all firing steps. Really supports the porcelain edge of margin from rounding.

Russ

Gorgeous work as always Russ.........
Thanks for sharing........

 

[DeVreugd]

Hi Russ,
I like the idea you describe using pt foil for your margins, would you please describe in further detail this technique. also comment on using a spot welder?
is this similar to the ones used for ortho?

Thanks in advance
Adam

Hi Adam.....Sorry for the delay! Needed to replace an old fax/scanner in order to capture these pics. These are from a textbook I had the honor to contribute to almost 30 years ago.
1) Seat your casting on the die, remove any areas of resistance.
2) Cut out .005 pt foil as shown.
3) Scrap away stone from die where pt. will be inside casting to ensure a good fit. Apply 1st opaque. Keep opaque away from area to receive spot weld.
4) Fix pt. to coping with 2-3 spots of super glue.
5) Remove from die and spot weld mesial,distal and facial. I use a Rocky Mountain Ortho Spot Welder.
6) Apply 2nd opaque. Bring down to meet pt. foil, just over the edge of metal.
7) Proceed with margin porcelain bake.

Russ

The textbook is "Dental Laboratory Procedures, Vol 2, C.V. Mosby, Publisher

 

[DeVreugd]

Thanks Rob...... I try!

 

[Affinity]

Hi Adam.....Sorry for the delay! Needed to replace an old fax/scanner in order to capture these pics. These are from a textbook I had the honor to contribute to almost 30 years ago.
1) Seat your casting on the die, remove any areas of resistance.
2) Cut out .005 pt foil as shown.
3) Scrap away stone from die where pt. will be inside casting to ensure a good fit. Apply 1st opaque. Keep opaque away from area to receive spot weld.
4) Fix pt. to coping with 2-3 spots of super glue.
5) Remove from die and spot weld mesial,distal and facial. I use a Rocky Mountain Ortho Spot Welder.
6) Apply 2nd opaque. Bring down to meet pt. foil, just over the edge of metal.
7) Proceed with margin porcelain bake.

Russ

The textbook is "Dental Laboratory Procedures, Vol 2, C.V. Mosby, Publisher

Man that seems like a lot of work.... for a porcelain margin...

D.sign seperator is the best ive ever used..
GC Initial Margin Porcelain.
2 bakes and good to go, first is a opaque porcelain to cover the metal, 2nd is a trans.
Perfect margins with maybe a little correction in the glaze with LF..

 

[JohnWilson]

Hi Adam.....Sorry for the delay! Needed to replace an old fax/scanner in order to capture these pics. These are from a textbook I had the honor to contribute to almost 30 years ago.
1) Seat your casting on the die, remove any areas of resistance.
2) Cut out .005 pt foil as shown.
3) Scrap away stone from die where pt. will be inside casting to ensure a good fit. Apply 1st opaque. Keep opaque away from area to receive spot weld.
4) Fix pt. to coping with 2-3 spots of super glue.
5) Remove from die and spot weld mesial,distal and facial. I use a Rocky Mountain Ortho Spot Welder.
6) Apply 2nd opaque. Bring down to meet pt. foil, just over the edge of metal.
7) Proceed with margin porcelain bake.

Russ

The textbook is "Dental Laboratory Procedures, Vol 2, C.V. Mosby, Publisher

I didn't know this was your technique Russ, in the old days when margin porc wasn't as good as it is today we utilized this in my lab. I had an old Dutch tech that worked for me. He was a great guy, I loved him to death. Smoked a pipe all day to the point that he wore a grove in between his arches for the pipe. Anyhow he used this technique and he did some of the best Twin foils I have ever seen as well. I guess he read your article.

Thanks!

 

[2thbob]

Everyone here is talking about old school ways of doing margins, and nothing wrong with any of them...but its a whole lot easier, faster, more precise to wax and press. TheLabGuy in another post had asked why anyone would wax & press in general, when its as quick for some of us to stack...porcelain margins are one reason. The other situation I use that technique is doing a pfm under a partial. As for SiKBOY and the wax/powder technique..No. Done it, some success, but- why. Ive already pulled out some hair and dont want to start the habit of banging my head on the bench. I have a friend who insists on using whip mix hightemp liquid to mix his shoulders...says it freezes in place so hard you can carve it, and burns out clean. What ever.

 

[charles007]

Bob,
Hi Temp Investment liquid is what we used on shoulder margins before margin liquids were created. Mix 50/50 with water, works great. And yes, the margin porcelain gets really hard.

 

[thewhitelab]

Thanks for pics and instructions Russ, i have often wondered how willie geller creates his HUGE margins almost a third of the crown i suspect he uses a similar technique?