wieland mini special

[mcfly]

Hi Guys
Was wondering if this is a good deal ?

Wieland mini basic

Zenotec cyclone

Sintramat S1

All for $55k

 

[charles007]

No way, plus that oven would not be my first or even second choice..
Mill aprox 27k US
Zenotec cylone, is this the suction with the built in compressor ? if so that would change everything ?

 

[mcfly]

Thanks Charles ,the Cyclone is just a HEPA suction unit .
So you think its a bit steep ?

 

[mcfly]

What is the issues with the sintering oven Charles?

 

[JohnWilson]

The S1 does not fire high enough for the OPTIMUM high temp of MANY of the new higher trans Zirconias

 

[Ron.Ferland]

The S1 does not fire high enough for the OPTIMUM high temp of MANY of the new higher trans Zirconias

John - What are the manufacturer recommended high temps for these new materials? Thanks.

 

[JohnWilson]

We do 1580

 

[BobCDT]

John, Are you sintering according to manufacturers instructions? Most Zi materials begin to have increased particle size once the materials are fired above 1450. This results in a weaker restoration. Not that I would be all that concerned with single units. I do see you posting lots of Izir like arches. These require max strength. Lastly, many Zi materials loose up to 50% of the origional strenght over five years. just putting it out there, we all need to be careful.

 

[RileyS]

John, Are you sintering according to manufacturers instructions? Most Zi materials begin to have increased particle size once the materials are fired above 1450. This results in a weaker restoration. Not that I would be all that concerned with single units. I do see you posting lots of Izir like arches. These require max strength. Lastly, many Zi materials loose up to 50% of the origional strenght over five years. just putting it out there, we all need to be careful.

Hey Bob do you have research on strength loss? I've been wanting to learn more about it.

 

[charles007]

Bob, please correct me since its been several years since I've read anything about aging zirconia. I faintly remember the decrease in strength starts around year 5 and can decrease up to 50%. Maybe I'm wrong from my memory !
If anyone has the latest studies that are trust worthy, please post to get us up to speed.
Am I wrong in saying Emax also looses strength over the years ? I thought I heard something on that subject recently ?

Back on topic, I've seen many used Sintramat S1 ovens for sale which speaks volumes, just like many used Cerec's for sale.

 

[JohnWilson]

We do 1580

John, Are you sintering according to manufacturers instructions? Most Zi materials begin to have increased particle size once the materials are fired above 1450. This results in a weaker restoration. Not that I would be all that concerned with single units. I do see you posting lots of Izir like arches. These require max strength. Lastly, many Zi materials loose up to 50% of the origional strenght over five years. just putting it out there, we all need to be careful.

Yes Bob we have a totally different protocol for ZI depending on the restoration and what we are trying to achieve. We also have different programs based on what we have in the oven (quantity). The manufacture protocol is our starting point. The "Full Arch" cases we produce are sintered at 1450 with a much longer hold time and at a rate that is no where near what we do for our singles. As we have increased our daily production I purchased a much larger and more powerful sintering oven Thermo-star M2+. Each oven is used for certain restorations when we have a mixed bag of restorations that we mill in one day. In the past we ran a bunch of smaller bridges and singles all at the same time. Now I do not have to run them together.

The question is why I would not buy a S1, I just would not buy an oven that couldn't sustain 1600c just to bullet proof me for future products. When Ivoclar acquired Wieland there is a reason why Ivoclar initially pulled the Thermo-star distribution and in my eyes it was directly to sell the S1 ovens that were already produced and sitting in their warehouse. Just my opinion here.

So just so I understand your protocol at CAP are you guys sintering full arches and singles together on the same cycle?

 

[user name]

My apologies if this is swaying from the OP topic, but...

Would you throw some names and models of different sinter ovens out, both good and bad and why?

Thanks

 

[NicelyMKV]

Depends on the type of Zr. High fusing zirconia does not degrade at higher temps like lower fusing zirconia.

 

[BobCDT]

Yes Bob we have a totally different protocol for ZI depending on the restoration and what we are trying to achieve. We also have different programs based on what we have in the oven (quantity).

So just so I understand your protocol at CAP are you guys sintering full arches and singles together on the same cycle?

John, Yes we do use differnt cycles for full arched than we use for small brides and single units. But the top temp is the same and dictated by the manufacturer, give or take 20 degrees. Big bridges are fired slower between 900 and top temp and we mirror the cool down rates.

 

[BobCDT]

Depends on the type of Zr. High fusing zirconia does not degrade at higher temps like lower fusing zirconia.

Hey Jason,
Can you please define what is a "high fusing Zi"? If you believe the 1450 materials are "high fusing", respectfully I am not in agreement. Looking at these materials with an election microscope you will see significant differences in the molecular structure with just 100 degree increase in firing temp. Yes it make the material appear more translucent. This change results in slightly less strength at 1500 and a much bigger drop off at 1550 and a continued decline in strength as the temp goes up.

 

[cadfan]

Bob make him a good deal ill think you can give him a real good 5 ax deal for that money ill know you can

 

[BobCDT]

Hey Bob do you have research on strength loss? I've been wanting to learn more about it.

I looked. I will try to get them next week.
if I can get a hold of them I will post it here.

 

[BobCDT]

Hi Guys
Was wondering if this is a good deal ?

Wieland mini basic

Zenotec cyclone

Sintramat S1

All for $55k

I don't want to get in the way of your deal. If you want to look into 5 axis milling we would be happy to provide you with some numbers and will share pros and cons of 4 and 5 axis. I believe we can do better with a Roland DWX50, CAM, duct collector and a Sintra from Shenpaz. All are industy proven to be highly accurate and reliable. We have also added CAP mill Stratergies for high def milling. We use a 0.3 MM tool to do the final anatomical detail. Also mill the most complex implant restorations. There are likely a thousand units if not more here in the US. I'm a user and also a distributor so my word is probably not enough. I'm sure there are dozens of users here that can pipe in and give you more input. Honestly, you can go through all the threads here on DLN and I don't think you will fine much negative stuff when it come to either the Roland mill of the Sintra furnace.
For suction I really have little knowledge of the cyclone. Anyone have one of these? When it comes to suction for milling Zi you need a collector that can manage large volume of waste. Look into how often this needs to be cleaned out. Also, does the motor have brushes or brushless?
When it comes to sintering, most overlook the importance of a qualty furnace. You should do your homework on this as well.
If you want more info you can reach out to us Monday AM at 877-977-7889. Hope this helps. Good luck either way.
Bob

 

[NicelyMKV]

Hey Jason,
Can you please define what is a "high fusing Zi"? If you believe the 1450 materials are "high fusing", respectfully I am not in agreement. Looking at these materials with an election microscope you will see significant differences in the molecular structure with just 100 degree increase in firing temp. Yes it make the material appear more translucent. This change results in slightly less strength at 1500 and a much bigger drop off at 1550 and a continued decline in strength as the temp goes up.

1450 is low fusing. I use Sagemax. It's a high fusing Zr Bob.

 

[Ron.Ferland]

Hi Guys
Was wondering if this is a good deal ?

Wieland mini basic

Zenotec cyclone

Sintramat S1

All for $55k

Mcfly,

I would definitely go with the Mini again, but get the advanced software for your tight occlusal anatomy with the .3mm bur. The .7 is good, but .3 is the only way to go for your wax; .7 is great for FCZ. Or, go with the Select dry mill w/o changer. This is a 5 axis mill with the advanced software included. The price difference with everything you get makes the price difference like $6K.

If I were you, find a Mini and Roland owner and ask if they will show you their machines. Or, go to their training facilities to see them in action. If they would be willing to take the housing off to show you the inner workings, I think the build quality of the mini will sell you. I wasn't impressed with the belt in the Roland....I'm more of a steel guy. Belts stretch out.

Also, my wieland rep said his milling center is backing up the mill now with 2 years of free backup. Meaning, if the mill stops milling and they cannot get it working, WPT will produce your work at no charge! They used to charge $15 per FCZ unit, now NO CHARGE. Good incentive to go through a manufacturer for this need instead of a dealer or another laboratory. JM2C.

Ron