Trying to sort things out. Open or Closed System

[TAB]

Hello All,
First time post here. Great site.

I am looking to purchasing a CAD/CAM system. I have been researching different options but my first decision is whether or not go with an open or closed system. Manufacturers from both sides have some valid points for their respective position.

Companies that sell "open" say why restrict your options of materials and if necessary, only their recommended milling centers. That sounds like a reasonable question to me.

On the other side, the companies that sell "closed" systems says who will support you if things don't go as planned. Their system are made to play together so less problems. As we all know in this field things don't always go like we would like them to go so that sounds like another reasonable question.

If I were to purchase say a 3shape scanner and a Roland DWX-50 and things don't go smoothly at some point what is the chance I'm caught in the middle of 3shape saying the problem lies in the mill and the mill saying its the scanners fault....you get the idea.

I know the reseller is of utmost importance. An example of what make me nervous is I'm still trying to get an online quote after several weeks and multiple requests from a reseller of both 3shape and Roland. They will go nameless for now. This is what kind of scares me about resellers to a degree. I can't even get a quote......What happens when I have a problem. That being said I know there is no obligation to get it out in a timely manner but if they really want to sell a system time is of the essence.



Here is a little bit of my background.
I am a one person lab so cost is somewhat of a concern.
I already have a some experience on the most basic level of digital workflow. I have the Procera Piccolo
I'm not ruling anything out but am looking more closely at 3shape/Roland DWX-50 vs. Jensen system. Honorable mention is NobelProcera partly because I am familiar with Nobel.

Is this and should this be a legitimate concern on deciding which type of system to purchase. I don't want to get caught in the middle. Worst case scenario would be to spend 70 grand+ on a system that I can't get to play nicely together.

I know systems will have to be refined and fine tuned no matter whether I choose an open or close system but are there real problems that do arise on a regular basis with open systems?

I guess I'm just trying to separate a sales pitch from the truth.....

Sorry to be so long winded

Any and all thoughts, suggestions or ideas are welcomed......Hope to see some of you in Chicago.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[CoolHandLuke]

you will want to contact a reseller of your complete array of tools. for example: you want to buy your cad and your cam from the same people.

that leaves you in an interesting position because as it stands there are few who will be able to provide you this level of support.

one of the sponsors of this site is CAP-us. custom automated prosthetics. they make some of their own stuff, sure, but they so far are the people that will sell you both of the items you have described, and will help you integrate them in your lab.

theres also Dale dental who are trying to compete this way, Kastle Mills in Canada. most other players will sell you a scaner and cad, and force you to buy their milled products instead of a milling machine.

worse comes to worst and you buy a great honking Haas mill well i have no idea how you'd go about integrating that into a lab without Haas calling all the shots.

 

[RileyS]

Our first was the sirona inlab. Closed but whenever a problem arose, which was a lot, the problem was never the system but the users fault. None of the other five scanners we have or have had gave us issues nearly as much and if they do, the support is smart enough to realize it's usually a computer problem, not mine. After that experience, I will never go closed again.

 

[ceram1]

We are a small lab 13 total with support staff, looking to be 15. We had a sirona system, while we used it we thought, with ignorance that it would be nice if it were open. This systems problems were equipment related, mostly the scanner, if we had exported to a imes it would have still sucked. Open was not the answer to fix that technology. I believe it is best to look at as multiple systems: scanner and cad, cam and mill, zirconia and shading system. To me, at this point, open is most important on incoming. We are currently using the Jensen system and the value is outstanding in this system. I am not away of a better scanner, the cad is really good in my hands. almost every gripe I had was resolved in the 7.3 release. The mill is a very easy to operate unit that is reliable accurate and the cam will import open files as well as lava output .lgd. There is multiple zirconia options available and more to come in the way of composites and temps. The system can export to any one using lava cam 7 as well. If in the future we were to go a different direction in the This mill can be converted to run other cam and could have a puck holder installed to replace lava frame holder but at this point I dont see the need. I dont know what you have been quoted but the roland would be most likely almost twice the money, but in all fairness a bit more productive. Our first was the sirona inlab. Closed but whenever a problem arose, which was a lot, the problem was never the system but the users fault. None of the other five scanners we have or have had gave us issues nearly as much and if they do, the support is smart enough to realize it's usually a computer problem, not mine. After that experience, I will never go closed again.


Our first was the sirona inlab. Closed but whenever a problem arose, which was a lot, the problem was never the system but the users fault. None of the other five scanners we have or have had gave us issues nearly as much and if they do, the support is smart enough to realize it's usually a computer problem, not mine. After that experience, I will never go closed again.

Or the next software upgrade will fix that...lol

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

Tom,

I manage the US resellers for Roland so I will spare you the sales pitch and get straight to the point. You concern about support when something goes wrong is valid. Closed systems use it as a sales tool since they need to justify the higher costs for their closed system. Fear is a powerful sales tool.

With hundreds of Roland DWX customers and thousands of successful restorations you don't have much to fear. I can tell you what typically goes wrong: bad materials and/or bad tools. This is easy to detect and fix by running the same CAM file with materials and tools that are known to work well.

Roland resellers in the US and Canada put a complete solution together that includes the mill, scanner and software. Everything is tested by the reseller to make sure there are no issues. A very common configuration is a DWX-50 mill with the 3Shape scanner. The CAM software ties the 3Shape data together with the mill so this is one of the most important areas for a dealer to have expertise. The dealers offer milling strategies that work very well with a wide range of tools and materials. If a cheap tool is sourced that has poor tolerances, things go wrong. If cheap zirconia is sourced then results can be poor. Closed systems avoid this possiblilty by locking up the tools and materials.

In short, if you stick with the set up that the dealer provides you won't have any issues. If you want to experiment with a different brand of tools, materials or CAM settings then start with a base line and change one item at a time to confirm the results are up to your lab's standards. This is the freedom of the open system, you can choose to explore options or stick with what works.

Regarding a quote, just send me a PM (private message) and I would be glad to provide you with a phone number for a dealer in your area. The dealer might not be responding by email because they are not seeing your email (spam filters strike at the worst times).

If you would prefer to talk on the phone or ask me any questions just call our office: 800-542-2307 my extension is 1386. If you are not located in the US I can put you in touch with the manager for your country.

I hope this info helps.

Best regards,

-Glenn

 

[shane williams]

The first thing you need to look at is does the ROI justify and outway the cost of a cad/cam system either open or closed. You mentioned you are a one person lab, so how many units are you doing? When we looked into getting a mill to add to are 3Shape we were outsourcing around 250-300 zr units a month. Glen has a really good ROI calculator. We decided to go with DWX-50. It's been a great workhorse for the last year. I'm not going to tell you it's been a bed of roses, cuz it hasn't. We've had are problems, but Roland does have a great customer service and problems were fixed. Remember with a closed you might get the service you don't get with an open system, but you're locked into using THEIR products, and open system you can try different tools, zr brands, and cam software you want. But you are your own R&D department.
Also remember you've got license's for 3Shape designer, plus whatever other add on's you get. There is a lot of positive talk on here about Exocad software with Medit scanners. *** is the guy to talk to. He'll lead you in a totally different way than the direction we went, but he's probably one of the most knowledgable person on her about CAD/CAM. Good luck with whatever you choose, and keep us posted. Oh yeah, welcome to DLN.

 

[Gru]

Tom,
I also have a small lab. I've extensive experience with the older "closed" systems at a 40+ person lab having produced maybe 200k units, and for the most part am not very impressed with the support of "closed".
My current system is a "closed"/open- I don't care to post the name but that narrows it down. The annual fees for the software are well justified IMHO as the tech-support there is excellent. The closed product is way over priced, but I mostly use the open side and send the .stl wherever I choose. I would likely look at Prime (Scott) or CAP - both site sponsors - when I switch, since they both are expected to support their stuff, and my current scanner company is intent on cutting us out. Seems like the more tech savy you are, the better open looks. BTW, if I hadn't bought the system at a severe discount, I would never make much money on it, so do what Shane says and use the ROI calculator to see if it works for you. Don't ever forget to add set-up, scan and design time to the formula as it compares to doing it the old way or shipping it to someone else w/ a scanner. If you decide on closed/open, maybe I'd sell you mine for the balance of payments- then I'd go open (some sales pitch, huh?) Good luck. Compare in Chicago!

 

[ceram1]

Tom,
I also have a small lab. I've extensive experience with the older "closed" systems at a 40+ person lab having produced maybe 200k units, and for the most part am not very impressed with the support of "closed".
My current system is a "closed"/open- I don't care to post the name but that narrows it down. The annual fees for the software are well justified IMHO as the tech-support there is excellent. The closed product is way over priced, but I mostly use the open side and send the .stl wherever I choose. I would likely look at Prime (Scott) or CAP - both site sponsors - when I switch, since they both are expected to support their stuff, and my current scanner company is intent on cutting us out. Seems like the more tech savy you are, the better open looks. BTW, if I hadn't bought the system at a severe discount, I would never make much money on it, so do what Shane says and use the ROI calculator to see if it works for you. Don't ever forget to add set-up, scan and design time to the formula as it compares to doing it the old way or shipping it to someone else w/ a scanner. If you decide on closed/open, maybe I'd sell you mine for the balance of payments- then I'd go open (some sales pitch, huh?) Good luck. Compare in Chicago!

Are there really any closed systems out there with the powerful software that some of the minds like *** and such are able to utilize, just saying. Phenomenal cad training would be more important for someone jumping into this as a one man show he has got to hit the ground running in my opinion. Good luck with your choice, there are many many options.

 

[hammerhead]

Tab I own a closed system milling center,have for 7.5 yrs.There is alot more to talk about than this forum will allow so if you need help pm your phone no.

Be glad to help

 

[ayane]

I have both open and closed systems.

Sirona support has been ok to us. We have 1 compact unit down for repair, they offered us a loaner but it wasn't neccesary. The issue with closed systems like sirona, is that you rarely get the "latest and greatest". This is because they are overseeing every step of the system from scanning to milling to sintering to material supply, so I ask with a such a large detailed system how can you be good at everything, offer your customers great support, and put out a "quality" system all while being at the forefront of innovation? There is no real answer, but Sirona is not doing this and you would be hard pressed to find a company that offers all of this in a closed system.

Our open system, 3shape dwx-50 sintering furnace etc, allows us to get the "best" from each peice of equipment. This requires some knowledge on your side, training of course, but gives you the ultimate flexability. If I decide my DWX-50 isn't cutting it, I can sell it and buy the next new mill to hit the market. Same with every peice of equipment in my open system. Support from most of the companies I've named has been great. Most open system machines have great support, they know you can dump them at any moment for something else.

I say "best" because every lab is different. You have to go out and see what works for you. Demo with other labs, go to shows and see the machine in action, ask questions, work with the equipment before you purchase it!

 

[Gru]

Are there really any closed systems out there with the powerful software that some of the minds like *** and such are able to utilize, just saying. Phenomenal cad training would be more important for someone jumping into this as a one man show he has got to hit the ground running in my opinion. Good luck with your choice, there are many many options.

Clarification: No, I don't think my particular "closed" system has the greatest software. I was only commenting that the phone support was excellent when there is any issue. In my own mind that's what justifies the annual fee, not the quality of software. I will move to open when the time is right for me.

 

[RileyS]

Hammer head, please share!

 

[REJ]

Tom,
I'm the CTO at DAL/DT technologies. Our expertise is in distribution of fully integrated systems and our mission is to provide support, service and training for end to end open systems that have been verified. One advantage is that as a lab we also use everything on real world cases daily and have experience with a wide range of equipment. Our model is to serve a bit like the geek squad does so you have one stop for hardware and software issues not a bunch of finger pointing. We distribute exocad, identica, dental direkt materials and imes-icore milling machines and we will be at Chicago Lab Day Booth #303, and have our CAD/CAM 101 lectures Friday and Saturday. Many of our customers will also be at lab day to share there experiences with getting into CAD/CAM or integrating our products into their existing set ups.
-Ryan

 

[charles007]

Open Closed, Open Closed, Open Closed: mm
Buy Closed and your set to use THEIR products Only. 3M system mill/lava scanner @30K plus sintering oven sounds good ! maybe ??? and much higher material cost.. hmmm

Buy Open and your set to buy the same products that a Closed systems uses and Any brand of materials, and new materials that may come out any day of the year..

One man lab: imes-icore 240i or new 250 with the Medit scanner =55k w 240i + 10k nice sintering oven.. Wet option aprox 4k extra.
Less than 70k will make you a one man wrecking crew milling anything on the planet, (minus metal) at this time.

To solve future problems, buy the mill and scanner,cam from the same company !

Charles

 

[TAB]

Thank you to ALL who took the time to respond.

It seems as if the majority says go "open" as long as it's with a reputable reseller that you feel comfortable with.

All the information leads to even more questions and options. Charles, you got me looking at the imes-icor line of mills.

Ryan and Glenn. Thanks for reaching out to me as well. I would enjoy chatting with both of you at some point in the future....I will try to look you up in Chicago as well.

Any additional thoughts from anyone are still welcome.

Thanks again to everyone.

Tom

 

[Kurt Zubler]

Tom,
I also have a small lab. I've extensive experience with the older "closed" systems at a 40+ person lab having produced maybe 200k units, and for the most part am not very impressed with the support of "closed".
My current system is a "closed"/open- I don't care to post the name but that narrows it down. The annual fees for the software are well justified IMHO as the tech-support there is excellent. The closed product is way over priced, but I mostly use the open side and send the .stl wherever I choose. I would likely look at Prime (Scott) or CAP - both site sponsors - when I switch, since they both are expected to support their stuff, and my current scanner company is intent on cutting us out. Seems like the more tech savy you are, the better open looks. BTW, if I hadn't bought the system at a severe discount, I would never make much money on it, so do what Shane says and use the ROI calculator to see if it works for you. Don't ever forget to add set-up, scan and design time to the formula as it compares to doing it the old way or shipping it to someone else w/ a scanner. If you decide on closed/open, maybe I'd sell you mine for the balance of payments- then I'd go open (some sales pitch, huh?) Good luck. Compare in Chicago!

Yes I also think the DWX50 is a system which works really well. Also CAP is a good solution for support. This is what I heard from several users.
But this is new and you should think about is when you are in CHicago there is the best CAM Software for the DWX50 made in Germay. You can see it at LMT or Callab Expo on the booth of ZublerUSA. You get all the support - Come ans see it. Also to fire Zirkonia restorations no question there is only oven V200, a Mercedes for a VW Price. e in Germany
V200 Furnace Video - YouTube

No question an open system its the only way which works. Your distributor sure wants to sell his products, but he must be competitiv in price and result.
See you in Chicago

Kurt

 

[rc75]

Hey Tab post 1 more time so you can receive "Private Messages" ( PM)

 

[TAB]

Kurt,
Thank you for the reply. What is the name of the CAM Software?

I will try and stop by at LMT.

By the way, I am currently running your Vario Press 300 porcelain furnace. Great furnace!

Tom

 

[TAB]

Hey Tab post 1 more time so you can receive "Private Messages" ( PM)

Thanks rc.

 

[Alex R.]

Open Closed, Open Closed, Open Closed: mm

One man lab: imes-icore 240i or new 250 with the Medit scanner =55k w 240i + 10k nice sintering oven.. Wet option aprox 4k extra.

To solve future problems, buy the mill and scanner,cam from the same company !

Charles

imes 240 + smartoptics 880 with exocad is my choice, from same company