Nobel scanner and sofware.

[paulg100]

"As for acrylic/tooth breakage on any implant retained and supported appliance if the occlusial scheme is not managed this will break."

i got the impression that the main issue is that when the bar is completely fixed there is literally no give what so ever so the acrylic take all the brunt.

With the two parts, although rock solid once engaged for all intents, theres still enough give to alleviate the issue.

atlantis are charging £1200 for the milled two part all in, bar and sleeve with posts and including all the clip mechanism etc, so not cheap but sounds worth it and like i say they look very slick..... in the brochure.

 

[JohnWilson]

I have posted a few examples of this two part system the benefit is not what you stated it is to hide for the most part access holes, and to aid in cleanliness. If the suprastructure is made correctly it officially implant supported. When the resilient attachment is present it doesn't make the appliance resilient. The attachment is just used for dislodging forces. I have cast overcasting so precise that the frixtion fit of the casting on the bar makes it virtually impossible to get the bar out of the inside if not screwed down to the model. A 2 to 4 degree taper to the bar and a perfectly flat top makes for a rock solid engaging interface.

I did not know atlantis was doing this, as much as I hate dentsply I may have to look at it.

 

[JohnWilson]

I searched and did not find this option.

Here is a cool older article but for the life of me I still can not find someone here in the states to do this.

http://www.osteonmedical.com/media/10118/easyclip%20article.pdf

 

[ceram1]

I have not yet seen the new atlantis devil company bars that you speak of but I hope to get a look at this in chicago in a couple weeks. My atlantis rep told me what they were up to but didn't have details. I am a little concerned with training technique support for both me and my docs as my lab heads this direction. In my area Nobel absolutely smokes dentsply on support. When ankylos and astra were separate astra wasn't bad but now they have broken up the territory and my clients and I dont share reps. what a disconnect.

 

[Labwa]

I searched and did not find this option.

Here is a cool older article but for the life of me I still can not find someone here in the states to do this.

http://www.osteonmedical.com/media/10118/easyclip%20article.pdf

I have one of these cases from Osteon on the go right now. I used locators instead but same deal. ill post photos when its done. As far as ease go its amazing. You can design these on the 3shape (which is what they do) by designing the bar then using the removable designer and design the secondary frame over the top of the prep and cad design. I am going to do another one to test but maybe print the secondary frame and cast it.

 

[paulg100]

"I did not know atlantis was doing this, as much as I hate dentsply I may have to look at it."

Yep i know what you mean.

There not on the website yet, but i was shown em on the reps i pad and apparently they are available now.

"I have posted a few examples of this two part system the benefit is not what you stated"

Thats the benefit Kois is stating based on some research i guess. I need to get more details on it.

 

[JohnWilson]

I have one of these cases from Osteon on the go right now. I used locators instead but same deal. ill post photos when its done. As far as ease go its amazing. You can design these on the 3shape (which is what they do) by designing the bar then using the removable designer and design the secondary frame over the top of the prep and cad design. I am going to do another one to test but maybe print the secondary frame and cast it.

Please outline how you do this in 3 shape please I have two cases in the lab that the refractory was made on Friday and it would be great if I could design something digitally.

Thanks

 

[bentley]

Bars/acrylic breakdown

I designed a bar for a dentist who was also an assistant prof at a state university about 1year ago. One of the four abutments (posterior) was a Straumann angled-which don't leave alot of room because of height. This guy just wanted me to mill the bar- was going to let his local lab process and finish the case- I said fine. Designed the bar (fixed distal extensions) meaning beefed up for the extra stress. warned him that the cantilever distance was probably excessive ( terminal implants 1st bi) with 2 teeth being cantilevered. Also sent 3 screenshots for him to approve bar design. Mistake; did not keep email copy or have him sign.
This guy called back almost 1 year later and was livid- there was crack in the acrylic directly underneath the access hole of terminal implant- the bar was not cracked or broken just a crack in the acrylic of the case I didn't even process or finish. This guy was a prosthedontist and professor and there was not will to listen to my opinion as to why this may have happened. He said the bar "flexed" due to not enough metal around implant-(there is only so much room). I was communicating with Nobel (and other specialists who didn't agree with assessment) when this guy kept calling and was being a complete ass. The last straw was a treating text at 10:00 one night on my personal cell phone stating if I didn't "fix" this bar (that wasn't broken) I could expect bad press to my lab. I called a good friend of mine- also a prosthodontist (well respected) and he said "write this guy a check and get him out of your life.
I did this, after calling and telling him that he was "out of line" and that I have no desire to work with anyone who resorts to threats and will not listen to another view. Take the money and the case somewhere else. Sorry for the long comment but I'm still upset about this and am tired of the people who get paid the most and who have the license not will to take the responsibility for what they do-things happen with these cases and the finger cannot always be pointed back to the lab (one of two).
My lesson; always have them sign off on design, and that you are not responsible for acrylic work done by another lab.

 

[Labwa]

i have not done one yet. I will do it over the next couple of weeks but i gather you would scan the refractory model as a removable full arch. draw to the margin of the bar. Put a spacer on it and cover it with wax and place some vertical pins on it.
it would be better to do it on the cad file of the bar but this way should work also.
Let me know how it goes. I will do the same when i get a chance.

 

[JohnWilson]

Sorry you had to deal with this nonsense. I would have clearly stated when he mentioned that someone else was finishing the case that you responsibility to the prosthetic ends when he has someone else finish the restoration. Then there are no hard feelings and when something comes up you are protected.

As for bars flexing, this is a real long shot at best.

 

[DentalAxess]

Labwa and John,

After you have designed your primary bar, I would recommend to setup a new 3Shape order using the Removable Partial software, you can re-import the CAD file of the bar and prosthesis so you don't have to scan the case again for the secondary part. Just ensure you have enough relief and ensure to block out distortions / sharp angles depending on you manufacturing technique.
Use major connector to design your secondary structure by covering the bar inside the connector. You can also add attachments such as support pins to the major connector from the library.

 

[lcmlabforum]

About what is bad regarding Nobel:
Nobel Direct comes to mind . . .
Just saying, although I agree it is largely a good company. And Replace platforms
that fractured while supporting a Locator abutment . . .
I use their Ti Alloy frameworks for any Nobel implant for hybrids that they will
copy mill from my wax up. Cannot reproduce my retention beads though . . .
otherwise well fitting and accommodating to my special needs.
LCM

 

[McTeeth]

Hey guys,

I have a question regarding Optimet. I currently have a Nobel Optimet. I use it for abutment/bars. I noticed that Optimet is a partner with Exocad (according to their site) so does this mean I could install Exocad on my comp and use it to design Nobel?

I hear Exocad is da bomb. I hope the answer is yes, I would like to try it.

Sean

 

[McTeeth]

Bump

 

[JohnWilson]

Hey guys,

I have a question regarding Optimet. I currently have a Nobel Optimet. I use it for abutment/bars. I noticed that Optimet is a partner with Exocad (according to their site) so does this mean I could install Exocad on my comp and use it to design Nobel?

I hear Exocad is da bomb. I hope the answer is yes, I would like to try it.

Sean

I think the Nobel optimet scanner and the one you are referencing is different. I doubt that they will open it up but I would be happy if they did. The GUI for the nobel software is cumbersome at best, while the finished product is AWESOME its definitely time constrictive and something I do not look forward to when doing bars.

The 3shape bar module is so much easier, and the little bit of demo time that I had of Exocad on the bars was even more intuitive.

Let me know if you hear anything different,

 

[McTeeth]

Will do John. I love my 3Shape & cringe when I have to use the Nobel CAD. I would actually pump out more Nobel if they made it easier for the techs to use. They could focus their time on pumping the scanner and products.

Thanks for the reply, I have this question directed at various rep sources, no reply yet

 

[PCDL]

I designed a bar for a dentist who was also an assistant prof at a state university about 1year ago. One of the four abutments (posterior) was a Straumann angled-which don't leave alot of room because of height. This guy just wanted me to mill the bar- was going to let his local lab process and finish the case- I said fine. Designed the bar (fixed distal extensions) meaning beefed up for the extra stress. warned him that the cantilever distance was probably excessive ( terminal implants 1st bi) with 2 teeth being cantilevered. Also sent 3 screenshots for him to approve bar design. Mistake; did not keep email copy or have him sign.
This guy called back almost 1 year later and was livid- there was crack in the acrylic directly underneath the access hole of terminal implant- the bar was not cracked or broken just a crack in the acrylic of the case I didn't even process or finish. This guy was a prosthedontist and professor and there was not will to listen to my opinion as to why this may have happened. He said the bar "flexed" due to not enough metal around implant-(there is only so much room). I was communicating with Nobel (and other specialists who didn't agree with assessment) when this guy kept calling and was being a complete ass. The last straw was a treating text at 10:00 one night on my personal cell phone stating if I didn't "fix" this bar (that wasn't broken) I could expect bad press to my lab. I called a good friend of mine- also a prosthodontist (well respected) and he said "write this guy a check and get him out of your life.
I did this, after calling and telling him that he was "out of line" and that I have no desire to work with anyone who resorts to threats and will not listen to another view. Take the money and the case somewhere else. Sorry for the long comment but I'm still upset about this and am tired of the people who get paid the most and who have the license not will to take the responsibility for what they do-things happen with these cases and the finger cannot always be pointed back to the lab (one of two).
My lesson; always have them sign off on design, and that you are not responsible for acrylic work done by another lab.

What a complete pile of Horse$%&t. I would have told him to go hang on that one. The bar didn't flex, the acrylic compressed/flexed. That's what it's meant to do. With no PDL, the loads terminate on the weakest restorative link (acrylic + teeth). I know I am preaching to the choir here, but you can't take that nonsense from blowhards. Im sure if he treats you like that, he does it to all the people he works with.