NO OXIDATION NECCESSARY?!?!?!?!???!!?

[martintay]

I agree there is a segment of the aging profession that WILL NEVER EVER ask for anything but a PFM. Thats fine but it is your responsibility to yourself.your staff and the patient to take a minute to educate your client.

Perpetuating this cycle by not educating these clients that their choice in materials have been proven to be a health risk for not only the patient but the tech working with them is unforgivable. If they are too cheap to even use a Nobel metal I sure as hell do not want to think about how they are when it comes to pay the months total.

While this specific metal being discussed does not have BE in it it does have close to 9% nickel. Why deal with this crap? With all the crap we have to protect ourself from this isn't something you should have to put yourself through.

I am not looking down on the techs that offer this, all I am saying is have you taken the time to discuss the negative issues with this type of restoration with your clients? Perhaps I may be so bold as to think it will take your relationship to the next level?

Anyhow, you sucked me into spinning it off again.... good job

In the UK almost every lab producing "Health service" work will be asked to produce NP bonded crowns (or should i say prescribed on RX ) this is probably still the majoratory % of work- how else do dentists expect these crowns for £30 or less !! Also Cad-cam is making NP more acceptable !! + the resession !!

 

[Affinity]

Forr the record I havent done a NP PFM in 2 years, now its all HN. Wirobond C has no Ni or Be. It handles and bonds better than any alloy Ive ever used. Im playing devils advocate a bit here..

Things have changed a lot in the past few years. But there was a time, not too long ago when it made financial sense to offer a Dr a crown with a $2 coping rather than a similar priced crown with a $75 outsourced lava coping. Go ahead and crucify me over that statement but Im stickin by it. So maybe its not ideal or "high end" but it is reality.. Or the OP wouldn have had the question in first place.

 

[JohnWilson]

Ok, last time I told myself to STFU and didn't listen.

More power to the guys that have this business model, I see no reason to entertain it and dude I am sure your work is awesome. I just see what this industry has done for me over the years. I feel its my duty to call out the crap that can EASILY change a small labs business model by just saying no. There are so many ways to make money in this industry, it has provided me with a terrific lifestyle, my path is not the only path, I am no different than anyone else, no need to compare, just expressing my opinion.

Now I am done, I won't pop off until the next thing gets under my saddle, then I will beat the hell out of that damn horse I call pride.

 

[Affinity]

More power to the guys that have this business model, I see no reason to entertain it and dude I am sure your work is awesome. I just see what this industry has done for me over the years. I feel its my duty to call out the crap that can EASILY change a small labs business model by just saying no. There are so many ways to make money in this industry, it has provided me with a terrific lifestyle, my path is not the only path, I am no different than anyone else, no need to compare, just expressing my opinion.
.

This is why I play devils advocate it gets the TRUTH out.. I really respect you John, and admire your business and tech savvy. I have gone the long way 'round to say that its NOT easy to just dump your bread n butter, BUT you CAN do it.. AND elevate your product.
Learning from people like you who have made that leap of faith is why Im here..

 

[martintay]

Not much choice here John- if that is what a lot of dentists want unfortunatly. Maybe i should move to the states. Anyway back to the thread-Remanium CS just sandblast/ultrasonic in water, then opaque as nomal.Trouble free very high bond. After second coat ultrasonic again in water for a few seconds so that the free (greenish ) oxide doesn`t leach into the porcelain build.

 

[Bentchase]

I hate metal!

 

[JohnWilson]

Not much choice here John- if that is what a lot of dentists want unfortunatly. Maybe i should move to the states.

I need to look away from the screen LOL

Why do they want it>? Because its the cheapest. Why is it the cheapest? Because the lab industry is full of techs that have no vision on how to run a business and allow competition to inform them at what price they are forced to offer a product. This then leads us down the slippery slope as to find a happy medium of raw materials that will allow us to produce said product and still eek out a marginal profit to allow us to 13 hours a day, with no vacation, sweat it out the next month on whether the check was coming in or Dr. Jackoff decides to move his crappy work to the next idiot down the street that will do it for a dollar cheaper.

Oh yeah I was there once, I choose not to ever go back. Luckily it was so early on that I was fortunate not to get stuck in anything that resembled a rut.

 

[Affinity]

I need to look away from the screen LOL

Why do they want it>? Because its the cheapest. Why is it the cheapest? Because the lab industry is full of techs that have no vision on how to run a business and allow competition to inform them at what price they are forced to offer a product. This then leads us down the slippery slope as to find a happy medium of raw materials that will allow us to produce said product and still eek out a marginal profit to allow us to 13 hours a day, with no vacation, sweat it out the next month on whether the check was coming in or Dr. Jackoff decides to move his crappy work to the next idiot down the street that will do it for a dollar cheaper.

Oh yeah I was there once, I choose not to ever go back. Luckily it was so early on that I was fortunate not to get stuck in anything that resembled a rut.

Its not that simple.. Things are very different in Europe.. Socialism changes the free market. It doesnt matter what Joe Blow lab owner does, because some bueracrat or lobby says 'this is what we need to meet the demands of the people, and this is the price we need it at'. This is no matter of what people will pay, its a matter of what the government allows you to charge.

Martintay, dont move to America.. stay in Europe and go to switzerland.. Make 700 chf for a pfm and call it a day!

 

[Affinity]

Need I remind you that this is coming to the US in the form of OBAMACARE?! The state-run healthcare will drive the prices to wherever 'they' think is 'fair'.

 

[martintay]

Come and try your hand in the UK and see how you get on ! There are plenty of good labs but not enough high paying dentists to go round- probably due to the fixed fee NHS system. I still have health service clients as many mix private/ NHS and our lab is one of the higher priced for NHS work in our area and we are losing work on price not quality ! A lot of dentists are also accountants by nature.Not trying to make you wince John , its just different.

 

[Affinity]

I have 3 price structures here. A new tariff which is the highest and most comprehensive, the old tariff, which doesnt even have codes for simple implant procedures.. and a private tarif, which is a discount of the new tariff. Every procedure has a set price.. model pour, pin set, pin saw, die trim, articulation, coping, ceramic.. etc.

Certain insurance will only cover a certain specific tariff. Invoicing is exhausting.. and I have to make estimates for almost everything..

My wife would move to the UK pretty quick.. but I think Ill just go on holiday and stay for free at my sister-in-laws..

 

[martintay]

I have 3 price structures here. A new tariff which is the highest and most comprehensive, the old tariff, which doesnt even have codes for simple implant procedures.. and a private tarif, which is a discount of the new tariff. Every procedure has a set price.. model pour, pin set, pin saw, die trim, articulation, coping, ceramic.. etc.

Certain insurance will only cover a certain specific tariff. Invoicing is exhausting.. and I have to make estimates for almost everything..

My wife would move to the UK pretty quick.. but I think Ill just go on holiday and stay for free at my sister-in-laws..

Yes a friend of mine worked in South Africa and it was similar .And John believe it or not we arn`t all IDIOTS- i hope your comfort zone doesn`t change for your sake .Martin

 

[adamb4321]

I'm also in the UK and had a conversation with a client recently which went like this:

Dentist: What's the advantage in using Zirconia?

Me: Well, Zirconia is biocompatible, doesn't cause any adverse tissue reactions, very strong, monolithic zirconia will not chip or fracture.

Dentist: Is it cheaper than a Non Precious bonded crown?

Me: No, I don't think Zirconia will ever be cheaper than Non Precious

Dentist: In that case there is No advantage in using Zirconia

 

[martintay]

Well there you go ! This happens all the time here, but some people are beyond understanding this mentality !!But the way this NP price cutting stuff had never happened to me until 4-5 years ago (NHS contract i guess ) always was asked for noble alloys etc - so beware USA it could happen in the future as it already sounds like its happening to some labs with FCZ.

 

[Affinity]

It is happening.. many labs think they can stay ahead of the curve with awesome products, but news flash.. everyone else offers them too. Supply and demand dictate price.. when the market is flooded with $99 FCZ, what Dr is going to pay $200? Theres nothing you can do about it really. Either stick with your guns and charge high.. or you go without.

The computer makes the tooth.. so easy a caveman could do it! What value is there in a chalky prefab crown?

 

[WDAman]

Replying to old threads is probably just talking to myself, not unlike any other day at the office. Right off the top of my BS head, I will say that there are at least three no nickel, no berylium, fda approved NP metals out there. Some have even been independently tested to be as compatible as 99.7% gold. Personally, I have one STATE account, ie goberment, that is almost exclusively NP, full-cast and pfm. Other accounts, looking to appease cheap patients, use NP very sparingly. My only gripe with it is that it is so amazingly difficult to grind and polish that we should actually be charging at least 30% more for a full cast NP crown than a full-cast gold crown, before metal of course.

 

[adamb4321]

Replying to old threads is probably just talking to myself, not unlike any other day at the office. Right off the top of my BS head, I will say that there are at least three no nickel, no berylium, fda approved NP metals out there. Some have even been independently tested to be as compatible as 99.7% gold. Personally, I have one STATE account, ie goberment, that is almost exclusively NP, full-cast and pfm. Other accounts, looking to appease cheap patients, use NP very sparingly. My only gripe with it is that it is so amazingly difficult to grind and polish that we should actually be charging at least 30% more for a full cast NP crown than a full-cast gold crown, before metal of course.

Don't worry you're not talking to yourself, what are the three alloys that your talking about?

 

[WDAman]

In a world of google, bing, etc., it is amazing I feel any need to actually answer with specifics, but what the hey, slow week.

Wirobond C from Bego, (Wirobond SG is very similar, just not certified),Colado CC from Ivoclar, Argen has 2 such alloys but has neither certified (god only knows why),and Orion from Idenco. Yes, those names are registered, please forgive me for not figuring out how to use those symbols in my post.

 

[adamb4321]

In a world of google, bing, etc., it is amazing I feel any need to actually answer with specifics, but what the hey, slow week.

Oh, I thought you were discussing good alloys to use, not setting me an assignment