NO OXIDATION NECCESSARY?!?!?!?!???!!?

[Bentchase]

Durabond Non-Precious Alloy
Just spoke with a guy at the matech HQ trying to get the oxidation cycle info and he said that you can run it in an oxidation cycle OR you can blast it then start your opaquing with out running an oxide bake. Are my ears deceiving me? Anyone out there doing this with tried and true results or am I, once again, behind the curve?

 

[JohnWilson]

Its a flipping car bumper, what they may be saying is that this crap oxides so much and so dark that anything will stick to it no matter how you treat it

A lot of alloys with heavy oxide actually benefit in bond strength from removing some of the oxide before opaquing. I generally try not to have to use such alloys

 

[GAP]

Durabond Non-Precious Alloy
Just spoke with a guy at the matech HQ trying to get the oxidation cycle info and he said that you can run it in an oxidation cycle OR you can blast it then start your opaquing with out running an oxide bake. Are my ears deceiving me? Anyone out there doing this with tried and true results or am I, once again, behind the curve?

if memory serves, ivoclars colado cc says on instructions no oxidation needed -- never tried w/o oxide cycle.

I was told once that going straight to opaque was a Canadian technique?

 

[CatamountRob]

It probably just means that you don't need a separate oxidation firing, it likely oxidizes on the first opaque firing.

 

[MasterCeramist]

With some n.p. alloys you do not need a seperate oxidation firing. Probably use something like a wash coat first and fire it 10-20 degrees higher than regular opaque firing temp.

 

[Al.]

It probably just means that you don't need a separate oxidation firing, it likely oxidizes on the first opaque firing.

Ditto but I do always degass then sandblast then do a bond coat.

 

[Al.]

But not with that metal never used any NP other than Rex 111

 

[kimba]

Dentaurum cocr bonding alloy remanium star also states that no oxidation firing is necesarry but you can run one to see if there is any surface contamination then sandblast

 

[RileyS]

What is this "oxidation" you speak of?
Ha!

 

[Bumfrey]

i use wirobond 280. Stopped oxidizing 2 years ago due to instructions and have had no problems so far. I do do a thin 1st opaque though at a higher temp. I tested a few crowns with a small hammer and then sandblasted the copings clean again and the bond was GOOD!

 

[rkm rdt]

I don't degass/oxidize any alloy.

trim,sandblast.opaque.

 

[Affinity]

this is nothing new, wirobond C, no degas. If you do, oxide is light green. Good luck getting the porcelain off, the bond is impressive. Who cares if its a car bumper, people want cheap crowns, dr prescribes it, and the porcelain doesnt fracture. Margins dont flare or flake. People will take these crowns to their grave, without their face melting off.. whats the big deal?

 

[adamb4321]

I did a Duceram course years ago, the Duceram tech said no need to oxidise any alloy from any manufacturer, apart from Degunorm that's used for duceragold, a good sandblasting and a clean works is all that's needed.

 

[JohnWilson]

this is nothing new, wirobond C, no degas. If you do, oxide is light green. Good luck getting the porcelain off, the bond is impressive. Who cares if its a car bumper, people want cheap crowns, dr prescribes it, and the porcelain doesnt fracture. Margins dont flare or flake. People will take these crowns to their grave, without their face melting off.. whats the big deal?

Well I do, there are so many things in this world that just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I am not judging you for your opinion I am just stating mine.

I just feel in this industry where technology has allowed us to produce VASTLY SUPERIOR restorations with the advent of new material science there is no reason to produce NP Crowns.

Many labs out there seem to be looking for a way to use old skill-sets with inferior products just so they can stay viable with a price-point that they can compete with. It is just horrible business thinking AND it affects everyone in the trade by eroding the price-point even more

OK enough of my personal rant, I jacked the hell out of the OP's thread and I apologize for it.

 

[Bentchase]

Well I do, there are so many things in this world that just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I am not judging you for your opinion I am just stating mine.

I just feel in this industry where technology has allowed us to produce VASTLY SUPERIOR restorations with the advent of new material science there is no reason to produce NP Crowns.

Many labs out there seem to be looking for a way to use old skill-sets with inferior products just so they can stay viable with a price-point that they can compete with. It is just horrible business thinking AND it affects everyone in the trade by eroding the price-point even more

OK enough of my personal rant, I jacked the hell out of the OP's thread and I apologize for it.

Well said. I have tried getting as far away from the metal scene as possible. It does still rear its ugly head from time to time. The percent in my lab, right now, is about 75% of crowns with NO alloy. Doing pretty good educating the doctors and SHOWING them a product worth deviating away from there norm.

Thank you for all of the posts. LOVE the education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To all of the neighbors to the north on this forum. I ate poutine a few nights back. Hats off. Would love to see this apart of Americans "fine" cuisine. Hee Hee

 

[martintay]

I did a Duceram course years ago, the Duceram tech said no need to oxidise any alloy from any manufacturer, apart from Degunorm that's used for duceragold, a good sandblasting and a clean works is all that's needed.

Degunorn / Degudent LTG - the most unpredictable alloy in the world!! And Duceragold porcelain- what a nightmare !!

 

[Tayebdental]

Do not use NP, once in a while for Maryland bridge !, I know it is used overseas a lot .

 

[Affinity]

Well I do, there are so many things in this world that just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I am not judging you for your opinion I am just stating mine.

I just feel in this industry where technology has allowed us to produce VASTLY SUPERIOR restorations with the advent of new material science there is no reason to produce NP Crowns.

Many labs out there seem to be looking for a way to use old skill-sets with inferior products just so they can stay viable with a price-point that they can compete with. It is just horrible business thinking AND it affects everyone in the trade by eroding the price-point even more

OK enough of my personal rant, I jacked the hell out of the OP's thread and I apologize for it.

Trust me, Im not trying to defend NP, and your point is naturally well-taken. But the fact is, Drs still prescribe PFM crowns.. they want a crown with a good bond. PFZ bond is negligible. FCZ is new and untested in the minds of most Drs. but gaining lots of ground.. And many have been burned by fractured porc. on Zr and theres tons of evidence to support that. So which is an 'inferior' product?

Bottom line, PFM crowns are many many labs bread and butter. Kudos to those who only sell non-metallic crowns, its just not the reality in every lab. Huge corporations like Bego, Ivoclar, Argen and the like are not going to sell 'car bumper' .. this is FDA cleared (since everyone is SO keen on that) medical alloy. Its a .3mm coping sandwiched between porcelain and cement.

Why are labs spending hundreds of thousands on SLM to produce NP crowns?

Of course other products are superior.. just like many Drs are superior.. but most are still old skool, like it or not.

 

[JohnWilson]

I agree there is a segment of the aging profession that WILL NEVER EVER ask for anything but a PFM. Thats fine but it is your responsibility to yourself.your staff and the patient to take a minute to educate your client.

Perpetuating this cycle by not educating these clients that their choice in materials have been proven to be a health risk for not only the patient but the tech working with them is unforgivable. If they are too cheap to even use a Nobel metal I sure as hell do not want to think about how they are when it comes to pay the months total.

While this specific metal being discussed does not have BE in it it does have close to 9% nickel. Why deal with this crap? With all the crap we have to protect ourself from this isn't something you should have to put yourself through.

I am not looking down on the techs that offer this, all I am saying is have you taken the time to discuss the negative issues with this type of restoration with your clients? Perhaps I may be so bold as to think it will take your relationship to the next level?

Anyhow, you sucked me into spinning it off again.... good job

 

[Bentchase]

Wait wait wait wait just wait a minute here................processing.................I thought breathing in all of that goodness was going to make me immortal!?! Some sort of super human god with woman hanging all over me. No?!