New Lab Cad - Cam

[Alex Sever]

Hello,
I am looking to buy a complete system ( lab scanner, design software, cam machine and a sintering oven ).
I am not exactly sure if I should try and mill presintered Cr-Co or titanium or just design them and mill them elsewhere.
I started this project convinced that I would get a Sirona package but was swayed due to the following facts :
- system is open but has issues with external .stl files
- tendency to brake and long repair times ( in my country )
- less in soft options for the same class as exocad ( on the other hand it is able to design a surgical guide which exocad can't on its own )
Now I am looking to buy a Roland DWX 51 ( or 52 ) with an Identica or Imetric scanner or maybe Opera, Zenotec Hybrid, Planmill 3. I am also trying to go the extra mile for an Amann or Imes 250.
Budget is around 80000.
Please advise! I would love to hear opinions from users who have experience with more than one system so the comparison actually will have weight.
Thank you so much in advance!

 

[doug]

Don't forget that whatever you buy you will need an air compressor with good dry air and they don't include the suction system in the pricing with most units. Just a little more money to budget

 

[Damo]

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[grantoz]

read all the cad cam posts and make a choice, just typing which one should i get is just lazy and risky.

 

[Alex Sever]

In my exact situation when time has become a big issue ( I have a week to decide ) and where I just found this site I don't see this as lazy but desperate. I can see the risk. Just need the inside of power users who owned more then one mill.

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[doug]

Is it your money? if not then get the best thing on the market. If it is, get a good system with Exocad and a 4 axis dry mill. That will get you going

 

[user name]

In my exact situation when time has become a big issue ( I have a week to decide ) and where I just found this site I don't see this as lazy but desperate. I can see the risk. Just need the inside of power users who owned more then one mill.

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If you have one week to decide and you feel desperation and urgency, I guarantee you are going to make a bad decision.

 

[cadfan]

where are you located whats your cam experience ??

 

[user name]

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[Alex Sever]

Europe - Romania.
Right now I was researching Zirkonzahn M1 and M4. Am not sure about their scanners ( interested in the 900 new model ). Any of you have experience with this units?
Roland 52 or 51 also seem to do whatever I need with the exception of Titanium for custom abutments.

 

[grantoz]

the 900 has better depth range so you need less scans the 600 will be able to be upgraded early next year buy the m4 its an excellent machine that can mill everything very well including models in an 1hour and half

 

[Dent Guru]

From experience, and considering the situation you are facing, I would carefully suggest Identica.
Their Hybrid was great before, but they are definitely bringing their A game with the new T-series!

 

[cadfan]

have a friend with M 5 and one with M 5 M 1 wet heavy it works i have a 4 ax V.. and 250 i wet i can do nearly the same things( on a few they are better on a few i am) than ZZ exept hard stuff maybe titanium but never tried but to do these things on a imes you need a bit more experience. Forget Vh. comes not even close to a M 1 or M4. 900 has 3 cameras so for a few things better . You can make courses in Tirol or South Germany.
Theirs although a cool offer in your country for 350 i full package ( suction, cam, scanner, exo, sinterofen) and your 13 bucks under your limit dont think they are Nbrs sell 650 and 850 too

http://www.zirkonzahn.com/de/home/

M 1 wet heavy scan 600 cases like this can be done on 350 i with knowledge too.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

zirkonzahn M1 will rape you if you choose to use external Exocad. so do not buy M1 heavy unles you feel like buying overpriced exocad - in which case why not 3Shape

 

[cadfan]

zirkonzahn M1 will rape you if you choose to use external Exocad. so do not buy M1 heavy unles you feel like buying overpriced exocad - in which case why not 3Shape

You run your M1 with STL grabber or Sum dongle ??

 

[eyeloveteeth]

just the stock nesting program (i don't actually operate that machine daily) -

but we were in for a rude awakening when we went and tried to mill a bar or even a CrCo puck - it required Zirkonzahn Exocad and wouldn't accept the file from our other exocad.

This was not particularly clear when we purchased it as we never had any problems with regular C&B

 

[Damo]

We have an M1 wet heavy also! We use the stl importer from ZZ and design with 3shape... importing files is a bit slow but c&b milling quality is great in all materials zirconia/emax/chrome etc...

Swapping between wet and dry is less than 5 min with a thorough clean thanks to a good design

Implant bars etc aren't really possible without ZZ exocad...

For an extra 10k I can "open" the mill - not sure exactly what that means: tools/cam etc... not sure I'd want to do it anyway because of the 95mm ZZ puck holder

Considering changing the mill for a Zubler DC1, seems to be a top notch machine? Anybody any experience?


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[Alex Sever]

So what is this 95mm disk? Is there no adapter to the standard disks? Also how good is the 900 scanner compared to the Identica top of the line from IDS 2017?
Thank you

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[BobCDT]

You want all open equipment 95mm disc holder is CLOSED. We have used many mills over the years and I represent a company that sells mills so I would like to disclose this first. I also own a lab. My lab has 3 Roland mills for milling soft materials and an AG M2 for metal milling. The Roland mill is likely the most reliable mill every made for dental. It was designed to include all that is needed for milling soft material precisely and without problems. The M2 is well designed and does a really nice job on custom abutments as well as many other indications. In our milling center, we have several VHF mills all fairly new and are having a fair amount of trouble with them.
Scan CAD, I'm a big 3Shape guy. I have a friend with a large lab, many design people. He moved from 3Shape tto Exocad and about 6 months he is going back to 3Shape as he says "it takes longer to design in Exocad". 3Shape is also a step ahead of exocad in indications. For instance, you mentioned surgical guides. When I was at IDS Exocad was showing the first version of their SG solution that was not yet available. 3Shape is now on a third version.
Sintering, either the Sintra or Dekema 674. The nice thing about the Dekema, SiC heating elements. This enables fast sintering (2 hours 45 minutes) of approved materials. These are Katana, Dental Direkt and Amann Girrbach zirconias. In our milling center, we run 3 -4 programs a day in each dekema. This expedites production.
I'm simply sharing my experiences with you. I'm assuming there are other good CAD CAM components out there but I know you will not go wrong if you follow the above. Your budget is fine to set up a quality CAD CAM department.
Good luck!

 

[rookiee]

Hello,
I am looking to buy a complete system ( lab scanner, design software, cam machine and a sintering oven ).
I am not exactly sure if I should try and mill presintered Cr-Co or titanium or just design them and mill them elsewhere.
I started this project convinced that I would get a Sirona package but was swayed due to the following facts :
- system is open but has issues with external .stl files
- tendency to brake and long repair times ( in my country )
- less in soft options for the same class as exocad ( on the other hand it is able to design a surgical guide which exocad can't on its own )
Now I am looking to buy a Roland DWX 51 ( or 52 ) with an Identica or Imetric scanner or maybe Opera, Zenotec Hybrid, Planmill 3. I am also trying to go the extra mile for an Amann or Imes 250.
Budget is around 80000.
Please advise! I would love to hear opinions from users who have experience with more than one system so the comparison actually will have weight.
Thank you so much in advance!

I'm at the moment in same situation but made my decision. Rolans DWX-51d, Renfert new cad cam suction unit, Nabertherm LHT 02/17 LB Speed. Formlabs2 printer, W&H Perfecta 900 set and a powerful computer. I own 3shape from past and I'm stayin here. Today I would go with a new E series. All together with a new scanner would be 70k eur with VAT included. I had Imes 250, wieland hybrid and roland on a table. Lack of support for imes was a reason and I read some good and bad stuff about them. Wieland has good support but they will terminate machine, brand etc. Besides there were also some issues with machines. Heard only good about roland and that's the most important, low maintance, high productivity and long life cycle. my 5c.