New cad-cam company Panthera Dental

[JohnWilson]

So then how the hell is the Optical scanner from Nobel able to do what it does? We do a ton of bars and this thing has yet to make a bar that didn't fit. I think my 3shape give much cleaner prep scans for crown and bridge over my Nobel scanner.

This part of technology just makes no sense to me, does it do what its promised to do? Or does it pretend to be able to do almost do it.

 

[Beatrice]

Well, that a very complicated subject. BUt there a reason why you only scan NObel platform with your Nobel Scanner. THey are the easieast platform to do bars on it and the forgive alots!
You might be a lucky Lab John that have a huge amount of dentist working on Nobel implant, but the reality is that scanning Zimmer, Astra tech, 3i, Straumman, BioHorizon, etc is way harder.

Anyway for my point of view there no more real development in lab scanner, I think the futur will be intra-oral scanning technology good enough for bar in maybe 7-10 years from now. Until this moment, if I can deliver a bar in 5 working days, what it is to take 1 extra shipping day to ensure highest quality.

Anyway bottom line, give me a call John it would really appreciate a chat with you, I know you do a lots a bar and your are very knowledgable in this field!

Thank you.
Bernard

 

[DMC]

7-10 years is plenty of time to have ROI on a new lab scanner.

I am going forward with my new lab scanner design for myself.

I think oral scanners are 10-15 years anyway.

I don't know why you say there is no more "real" development in lab scanners anymore?

I hear of new models coming out almost weekly. Cameras change, projectors change, software changes, etc....

Just my $0.02....??

 

[Beatrice]

*** yes there plenty of NEW scanner, but at the end of the day, it all the same technology with roughly the same precision. I am always talking about dental lab scanner not industrial scanner that cost 50K to 250K each

Not saying that a company might surprise us in the futur but for what I see and what I know there not a table top scanner that will acheive what we use at Panthera, anyway there some physic law that cannot lie, if you want precision it need to be big, heavy and be on a huge marble rock to stay stable, otherwise you lack of precision.

 

[Affinity]

*** yes there plenty of NEW scanner, but at the end of the day, it all the same technology with roughly the same precision. I am always talking about dental lab scanner not industrial scanner that cost 50K to 250K each

Not saying that a company might surprise us in the futur but for what I see and what I know there not a table top scanner that will acheive what we use at Panthera, anyway there some physic law that cannot lie, if you want precision it need to be big, heavy and be on a huge marble rock to stay stable, otherwise you lack of precision.

So what scanner are you using? Sorry if its already been mentioned

 

[lcmlabforum]

Hi John,
Yeah Nobel HAD a non compete, but that was a year ago and it done. Now Nobel bought us for 40Million CAD $, so once everyone is paid, and then tax come what is left can be burn in a year easly..nothing to give to my kids...

ANyway...im 30 years old...even rich what you would do of your day? Something fun! That why my brother and I started a new company because it fun doing something great!

Now we plan to accep design for Abutment from 3shape/scanner but for bars their scanner is not precise enough for case where you have multiple implant, diffrent platform, high angulation. We cannot guarantee the quality if done with those scanner.

Now John keep the name on the UPS box, but just change the adresse, it is in the same city, just 1 mile away of where you normally sent them


Best regards
Bernard

Can you elaborate - are we talking about the resolution tolerance within each implant,
or overall geometrical inaccuracies (which seems like what you are referring to for bridges)
regarding errors in distances multiplied by angular discrepancies?
Is there a magic number like 10mm center to center before 3Shape scan becomes inaccurate?
LCM

 

[DMC]

*** yes there plenty of NEW scanner, but at the end of the day, it all the same technology with roughly the same precision. I am always talking about dental lab scanner not industrial scanner that cost 50K to 250K each

Not saying that a company might surprise us in the futur but for what I see and what I know there not a table top scanner that will acheive what we use at Panthera, anyway there some physic law that cannot lie, if you want precision it need to be big, heavy and be on a huge marble rock to stay stable, otherwise you lack of precision.

This is what I am building. I think it will be close to 800lbs or so? It will be close to $90k USD with the software! Maybe even 100k?

I do not think I will use Granite or Marble....probably just steel.

No need to dampen vibrations with Granite, because we are not milling. Steel will be fine.

 

[DentalAxess]

Welcome to the forum Bernard!!

 

[Scanner Man]

Bernard - Please send me a private email message here. I will email you tomorrow. We know each other and I hope to work with you and your brother again.

We have a scanner that is accurate enough for bars and it is not on the market yet.

You are correct that industrial scanners (Large Granite block,...) will always be better but not everyone can afford a 100K system nor will anyone succeed in marketing such a scanner to labs. Desktop dental scanners can provide adequate data if they are designed in the correct manner. Automate, minimize and control your errors is the way to design something affordable and accurate enough.

 

[Scanner Man]

John-

If you look take a look at the designs of the 3Shape and the Nobel scanner they are on two opposite ends of the spectrum.

The 3Shape uses a lot of rotational movements while the Nobel uses linear movements.
The 3Shape uses laser line triangulation while the Nobel uses a laser point based on Conoscopic Holography.
The 3Shape was designed by a dental/hearing scanner company while Nobel was designed by a metrology company.

They both have their +'s and -'s. The results you get are what you would expect from two vastly different designs and technologies.

The Nobel was designed for accurate implant positions with OK prep scans.
The 3Shape was designed for accurate preps and OK implant scans but not accurate enough for all bars.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Bernard - Please send me a private email message here. I will email you tomorrow. We know each other and I hope to work with you and your brother again.

We have a scanner that is accurate enough for bars and it is not on the market yet.

You are correct that industrial scanners (Large Granite block,...) will always be better but not everyone can afford a 100K system nor will anyone succeed in marketing such a scanner to labs. Desktop dental scanners can provide adequate data if they are designed in the correct manner. Automate, minimize and control your errors is the way to design something affordable and accurate enough.

do you have any opinion on Proto3000's 3-eye scanners ?

 

[Scanner Man]

*** -
Is this similar to your design?
It was introduced by Cynovad for 1 year before they disappeared.
I personally like the GOM ATOS scanner better than the Steinbichler.

If you want some free mesh and inspection software you can download from GOM Inspect Download: GOM
It isn't the easiest software to learn at first but it is quite powerful.

 

[Scanner Man]

I have never used any of the Proto3000 scanners but based on the specs it would not have market in dental except for Orthodontics or archiving.

The EXAScan specs say:
The X/Y/Z resolution is 50um and the accuracy is up to 40um's. These numbers are too high for dental restorations in today's market.

 

[DMC]

Yeah, I saw that scanner....six years ago! LOL

Mine will be similar to CNC machine. Cast frame.

Not 50lbs worth of plastic.

 

[greeny]

Hi Bernard, welcome back after your 1 year "vacation"!

Regarding scanners, this is why we tend to recommend the Imetric for multiple implant type restorations. We find it to have the highest resolution and most accuracy/repeatability which is so important for these applications.

Garbage in - garbage out, right?

 

[Dentaleng]

I would rate the Noble Forte (Now Renishaw) as the most accurate scanner over all and the IMetric in non contact for multiple implants.

 

[Scanner Man]

I would rate the Noble Forte (Now Renishaw) as the most accurate scanner over all and the IMetric in non contact for multiple implants.

The Noble Forte is a very good scanner and in the hands of a experienced user is probably the most accurate and consistent scanner for implant positions. But don't try and get any tooth anatomy with it.

I would not agree with you on the Imetric - It is a very good and perfectly capable scanner for the dental industry but not necessarily the most accurate non contact system in the market.

From their spec sheet
They do put a note that it is better than this depending on surface. But they do not define what surface so you only have these numbers to go by.

Point Spacing 0.07 mm
Point Noise 0.005 mm
Repeatability 0.010 mm
Accuracy 0.020 mm

Other scanners have better specs than this especially the point spacing which I have always said is the weak point of white light systems.

 

[DMC]

The Comet5 Eco 11M specs..... With a 75 x 50 x 50 window, you have 18um spacing! With 155 x 105 x 70mm window....38um spacing! Camera Resolution	4016 x 2688
Measuring Volume in mm³ 80 150 350 600 1000	75 x 50 x 50 155 x 105 x 70 345 x 230 x 200 560 x 375 x 370 900 x 600 x 600
3D Point Distance in µm 80 / 150 / 350 / 600 / 1000	18 / 38 / 85 / 140 / 225
Shortest Measuring Time in Seconds	4.0
PC	C5 Miditower Optional: HighEnd Workstation: 1 x Intel Xeon Hexacore, 24 GB Upgrade optional: 1 x additional Hexacore CPU, up to 96 GB
Sensor Positioning	tripod or sensor stand with manual turn and tilt axis, robot
Automatic Object Positioning	rotation table, robot

 

[DMC]

Hexacore CPU with up to 96GB of RAM!!!

96!

 

[Jorge]

Is the Optical Reveng good enough for bar over implants?

It uses Windows extended desktop (VGA connection) for the light projector and I do not like that but I can live with it if scanner is good.