Looking for Lab Milled e.max who should I send it to?

[JohnWilson]

Thanks Charles & Derek.. I do mill for Emax for labs, I just dont advertise it.. John has very good point
The profit margins is not great. So, tieing up the mill for a lot of Emax customers isn't really what I want.
A select few DLN memebers is good.
We use the MCX5 and use either a fine mill or a extra fine mill(.6mm bur for greater detail) We use the fine mill
on 90% of the cases. The margins and fit are excellent.. I have used the other in the past(Haas, Weiland) these
are pretty good.. I just think MCX5 margins are a little better.. We very rarely press anything anymore.
Also, the MCX5 is a certified mill for Emax blocks.. As I am sure Weiland is.
Funny thing is, recently I got towatch and listen to Dr. Sameer Puri & Dr. Ed McLaren demonstrate the MC XL, Omni Cam and SW15 software.
It was apparent margins were not important to these guys. I told Dr. Puri that my MCX5 takes around 40 mins to
mill a single unit. His quote was "I dont have time for that" they whip and rip em out on the MC XL in 15 mins.
I looked at the margins and was shocked they seat these in the mouth.. Also, I watch Puri design a 6 unit venner
case they prepped and then scanned with Omni Cam. They designed the case with the SW 15 inlab software. ( I have the
X5 scanner and SW 15.1 software, so i was very aware of what he was doing) I was amazed as I saw him struggle to
find and define margins with the software.. The Omni wasn't picking them up in detail.. So, with a room full of Doctors
he created his own margins by guessing were that margin were... WOW.. So, Dr McLaren's fix to get these to
seat was, make the die spacer/gap 1mm from the margin extremely tight and then thicken the margin area 1 mm of the restoration.
So the doctor could then use a fine diamond bur and relieve the inside of the Veneer and polish down the
margin to make them fit.. WTF! I was shocked, I couldn't believe this is were dentistry is heading??? Patients are the one
who will suffer from this crappy dentistry, as the dentists go to the bank on them. I had to leave after that, I could believe
what I was seeing.. Sorry, I just had to vent about the other side of Sirona and Cerec Dortors that I hate!

I have experienced the same thing watching Cerec docs proceed, if you can not control the moisture when scanning you will not read a REAL margin. These guys are both rockstars and have work arounds but yeah WTF not a great selling tool if you ask me

 

[herb]

The HAAS unit is still a substantial machine compared to the table top mills many are using today such as MC-X5 by sirona or Wieland Select.

Also what kills these mills is that many are using them for both wet and dry which just is nuts if you are swapping them same day.

Oh well I am rambling again

I have NEVER cleaned my Three HAAS.

Why do you think you need to do that?

You are taking them out on the town to dinner & movie?

They do not need cleaning at all.

I stop cleaning my other Twelve mills as well.

 

[charles007]

Thanks for sharing Tad,
Tad, how much money would it take to repost this on DT in greater detail ?
I'm sure there are a lot of takers on DLN that would pay good money to see the sideshow from the fallout in the Cerec section on DT.
Triple dog dare you to post..........
Can I get a amen to that

 

[ts4341]

Already thinking I'm going to get banned from Study Club from this post.. I think I'll let it die here

 

[ts4341]

John.. Do you know the MPA of the new Cerec Speedfire zirconia.. Isn't only around 800 - 900 MPA or less?

Thanks Tad

 

[herb]

Thanks Charles & Derek.. I do mill for Emax for labs, I just dont advertise it.. John has very good point
The profit margins is not great. So, tieing up the mill for a lot of Emax customers isn't really what I want.
A select few DLN memebers is good.
We use the MCX5 and use either a fine mill or a extra fine mill(.6mm bur for greater detail) We use the fine mill
on 90% of the cases. The margins and fit are excellent.. I have used the other in the past(Haas, Weiland) these
are pretty good.. I just think MCX5 margins are a little better.. We very rarely press anything anymore.
Also, the MCX5 is a certified mill for Emax blocks.. As I am sure Weiland is.
Funny thing is, recently I got towatch and listen to Dr. Sameer Puri & Dr. Ed McLaren demonstrate the MC XL, Omni Cam and SW15 software.
It was apparent margins were not important to these guys. I told Dr. Puri that my MCX5 takes around 40 mins to
mill a single unit. His quote was "I dont have time for that" they whip and rip em out on the MC XL in 15 mins.
I looked at the margins and was shocked they seat these in the mouth.. Also, I watch Puri design a 6 unit venner
case they prepped and then scanned with Omni Cam. They designed the case with the SW 15 inlab software. ( I have the
X5 scanner and SW 15.1 software, so i was very aware of what he was doing) I was amazed as I saw him struggle to
find and define margins with the software.. The Omni wasn't picking them up in detail.. So, with a room full of Doctors
he created his own margins by guessing were that margin were... WOW.. So, Dr McLaren's fix to get these to
seat was, make the die spacer/gap 1mm from the margin extremely tight and then thicken the margin area 1 mm of the restoration.
So the doctor could then use a fine diamond bur and relieve the inside of the Veneer and polish down the
margin to make them fit.. WTF! I was shocked, I couldn't believe this is were dentistry is heading??? Patients are the one
who will suffer from this crappy dentistry, as the dentists go to the bank on them. I had to leave after that, I could believe
what I was seeing.. Sorry, I just had to vent about the other side of Sirona and Cerec Dortors that I hate!

What are you surprised at here?
MCXL uses Two spindles at same time.
Of course it is faster. But the life of spindles can be measured in minites! lol
Any milling machine is only as good as it's CAM.
I promise you that an industrial HAAS can cut a better margin than anything Sirona has released.

Sorry you never got to see that happen. I never saw a HAAS when I visited Mark.
You maybe had a Dry version for Prismatic years ago? A 4-axis version with crappy CAM?

 

[ts4341]

Not sure what I was surprised about?? but ok..

big haas.. I will def take your challenge!

 

[ts4341]

Haaas,,, also your mill is not certified by Ivoclar for grinding Emax.. FYI

 

[JohnWilson]

I have NEVER cleaned my Three HAAS.

Why do you think you need to do that?

You are taking them out on the town to dinner & movie?

They do not need cleaning at all.

I stop cleaning my other Twelve mills as well.

I wish I never had to clean my mills Pretty sure they would die inside a week if I stopped doing it

 

[JohnWilson]

John.. Do you know the MPA of the new Cerec Speedfire zirconia.. Isn't only around 800 - 900 MPA or less?

Thanks Tad

Tad I am not sure, I know that anytime we speed sinter anything it looses strength, their zirc in their special oven has the new elements in it and you actually bang the unit in at the top temp. Crazy if you ask me but these docs can't wait around Also I hear your supposed to only do one at a time or something like that???

HAHAHHA no thank you!

 

[herb]

Haaas,,, also your mill is not certified by Ivoclar for grinding Emax.. FYI

Tell that to Core3d. A massive global company btw. I fix their 3d printers and sold them a DMG Ultrasonic this year. You ever play with or modify big industrial machines before Tad?
I own Fifteen Industrial mills. NOT table-tops. I have designed my own table-top the past Four years as well!

I do not need any company to "certify me" for what I do. Seems to work for me the past 20 years.

I do not mill eMax because of the very little profit and I knew that material was not the future of anything, but for some reason Charles never stops talking about milled eMax for a decade now it seems. ( Hi Charley!)

I promise you I have seen and used 10x more mills than you, but I respect your opinion on what little you have seen.

If you want to think a little table top Sirona is the worlds best mill, then go ahead! I will not be joining you.

(John, I am getting Grey like you. I need to update your pic on my forum...... for us both! lol)

 

[PDC]

Tad I am not sure, I know that anytime we speed sinter anything it looses strength, their zirc in their special oven has the new elements in it and you actually bang the unit in at the top temp. Crazy if you ask me but these docs can't wait around Also I hear your supposed to only do one at a time or something like that???
HAHAHHA no thank you!

Tech specs are here: http://manuals.sirona.com/home.HomeDmsDocument.download.html?id=5816

It seems as though the vendors (you know who) have sold the Dentists on the idea that 83% of patients would prefer to have their crowns done in one appointment. Once they go to the seminars and hear this, they become a little paranoid, thinking they are losing patients to other Cerec docs. And if they have spent the 130K+, then never mind discussing any drawbacks to this technique...because there won't be any.

One of my Cerec accounts (I don't mill the stuff) told me that the zirconia looks like chalk. I told him maybe he should let the patient look at one of the Argen FCZ's next to the Cerec and let them decide which they would rather have. He said they wouldn't be able to tell the difference...but he didn't want to attempt this. Of course, the money has already been spent now.

I just don't understand how they can justify adding in this procedure if their day is already booked. That time will have to be compensated for somewhere. An hour of lab time is peanuts compared to chair time. Makes no sense.

 

[RileyS]

Tell that to Core3d. A massive global company btw. I fix their 3d printers and sold them a DMG Ultrasonic this year. You ever play with or modify big industrial machines before Tad?
I own Fifteen Industrial mills. NOT table-tops. I have designed my own table-top the past Four years as well!

I do not need any company to "certify me" for what I do. Seems to work for me the past 20 years.

I do not mill eMax because of the very little profit and I knew that material was not the future of anything, but for some reason Charles never stops talking about milled eMax for a decade now it seems. ( Hi Charley!)

I promise you I have seen and used 10x more mills than you, but I respect your opinion on what little you have seen.

If you want to think a little table top Sirona is the worlds best mill, then go ahead! I will not be joining you.

(John, I am getting Grey like you. I need to update your pic on my forum...... for us both! lol)

Wait a sec...Is this a guy who's name rhyme's with cotty and starts with an S?

 

[rkm rdt]

Wait a sec...Is this a guy who's name rhyme's with cotty and starts with an S?

No ,his name is herb. you know like the stuff Snotty was always smoking.

 

[rc75]

What's the average cost of a blue block?

 

[rc75]

 

[2thm8kr]

Depending on the supplier and quantity 25-35 each

 

[charles007]

[QUOTE="herb, post: 229747, member: 14292

I do not mill eMax because of the very little profit and I knew that material was not the future of anything, but for some reason Charles never stops talking about milled eMax for a decade now it seems. ( Hi Charley!)
)[/QUOTE]

Herb, I agree, busted lol
I assumed years ago we would see a LD/ second/third generation copycat of emax that's much cheaper ! and sold in block form.That never happened except for GW/no comment/, and Zubler's Concept Press but not sold in Block form. Concept is a little cheaper and actually looks better than emax, but the price is not low enough to cross over into main stream labs from my limited view point opinion. Emax is still the Porsche of all ceramic materials to many docs, and zirconia is the poor mans Chevy....Having said that, more Anterior Chevy's being seated in the mouth than Porsche's now a days.

 

[Toothman19]

What's the average cost of a blue block?

$20

 

[rc75]

$20

$20? I always guessed it was more