InLab Study Club on Facebook

[paulg100]

Is your account using a resin bonded cement Bobby? like mulitlink or unicem 2.

This should solve the wash out problems, but yeah having closed margins to start with would be the better option.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

No, not resin based. I advised him as you suggested.

 

[Mark Jackson]

From what I understand somebody loaned you a red system for a short period and you never attended training for the system either. Not really a fair evaluation is it? It's really funny that you spend so much time slamming any product or system that you don't use (ie. inLab, Crystal Zirconium, etc.). Maybe thats your idea for marketing your services.

I understand that you have extensive CAD/CAM experience. I just really don't understand why you are so set on trying to sound like an expert on a system you have so little experience with.

We were given a loaner system here for six months+ to evaluate. We had the training done here in house. I spent about $11,000 on supplies and accesories during that period and we milled up everything we had. After the evaluation period, we decided the system was not for us. I have millions and millions of dollars in equipment, and I'm not afraid to buy a product if it works for us. I never claimed I OWNED one, but frankly I don't see how that is relevant in any way??

I have been very clear in my statements that the system has certain features that I like, and others I don't like, but if used within it's limits, it's a capable little system.

I have tried to remain objective in my statements and I'm always willing to point out the faults in my own systems. In fact, I'm probably a lot more open about that than most people because I do not have an emotional attachment to most of my stuff. CEREC people seem to be very emotionally invested. More so than any other brand I've seen..to the point of being irrational in some cases.

I was INVITED to join that group. I didn't seek it out, but I love dental technology and lab owners, even if they don't always want to hear other opinions, so I'll stick around.

Re-read my posts. I don't think you'll find them to be promotional in nature at all, but I'll try and be more cognizant of the tone I use.

Thanks

 

[Paul Drufva]

$5,000 to upgrade so you can mill models, plus new burrs needed as well... plus the lack of accuracy... I can't see how it's very useful at all.

the way they're censoring, makes me think someone involved with Sirona is running things there.

advertising in disguise?

 

[PDC]

2 of our docs got a Cerec 3 years ago when Patterson was pushing them hard in the St.Paul/Minneapolis area. One was a very prominent account for us. We saw a loss of about $60k in work the first 6months. But as things played out the they realized they'd been over-sold.

These docs rarely use their systems anymore..and one of them said plainly "it's a piece of bleeping bleep". And that'd he'd never get the value he was promised out of his system. I think he had some unfriendly choice words with his Patterson rep as well.

Anyway...our lab has no more fear of lossing work to Cerec milling systems, and I pity the patients who have these restorations placed.

We have the new Strauman CS2 and do our milling through their center.

I currently have a Straumann scanner and plan to upgrade to the new CS2 this yr. after their merge with the DWOS software. Have you experienced any negative issues with the new CS2?

 

[Alistar]

I currently have a Straumann scanner and plan to upgrade to the new CS2 this yr. after their merge with the DWOS software. Have you experienced any negative issues with the new CS2?

Got your p.m. sir.

Still waiting to hear from my brother on specific details, but I haven't heard a peep of negative from him since he started working on it. He did mention how much faster it was, because he didn't have to load each die. He can just load the working model, with soft tissue in there and scan the whole deal in one shot.

Which was a big deal to him. The first gen scanner gave him many a headache till he figured out all kinds of tricks to "trick" the software..or work around intuitive inadeqausies.

 

[doug]

I've corresponded with a technician in the U.K. who is thrilled with the improvements in the CS2 scanner. I should have mine in about three weeks, I hope.

 

[PDC]

Thanks, for the info Doug. Could you guys keep me posted on your experiences with the new scanner...I believe I have until October 1 to be able to get the trade-in deal for my old scanner.
The big question I want answered is "Will we now be able to access other milling centers with the new software upgrade?"

 

[Alistar]

After talking with my brother, this is what he said.

Virtual designing of abutments is MUCH easier, which he loved, because he does all his custom abutments virtual. He did over 300 last year, all virtual. If you wax your abutments and scan them in, might not be a big deal to you.

The virtual model scan is much more detailed and requires less rescans. The single die scanning is x3 times faster and much improved.


And to take a stab at your question about sending to other milling centers, I don't think so. Why would Strauman cut their own throat? They are at the top of the implant scene. Why wold they risk their reputation by allowing other milling centers, that do not conform to their standards, do milling behind their back?

 

[PDC]

I thought about the "cut your own throat" thing also, so that begs the question of "why merge with DWOS and become an open system?" Maybe they will close the implant abutment milling to Straumann milling centers only, but that still could cost them a lot of business if they allow other structures to be milled elsewhere. Maybe they are hoping to pick up some COS milling business. Also, with other intraoral scanning devices coming online, it would seem foolish not to have some kind of open platform. If they don't get more competitive on pricing they could lose business anyway. Hopefully, we will have access to more products such as full contour zirconia crowns.
I'm going to wait before upgrading to see how this all plays out.

 

[doug]

Straumann is going to bring on additional implant platforms later in the year. The DWOS will be an even different software for the CS2 scanner. It really is just going to get better now that Straumann has opened their eyes to open architecture.

 

[Alistar]

Hopefully, we will have access to more products such as full contour zirconia crowns.

That would be nice, even though full contour zirconia looks like crap.

It has it's uses and could make you money. Glidwell right???

I've had 2 accounts want full contour zirconia. One was bargain hunter new dentist(who couldn't afford our lab) and the other wanted full contour LAVA, because the patient worked for 3M and requested it. We called our Lava lab and they said they could do it. We stained them up best we could, but they looked like total junk...but the patient and doc got what they wanted.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

Hopefully, we will have access to more products such as full contour zirconia crowns.

That would be nice, even though full contour zirconia looks like crap.

It has it's uses and could make you money. Glidwell right???

I've had 2 accounts want full contour zirconia. One was bargain hunter new dentist(who couldn't afford our lab) and the other wanted full contour LAVA, because the patient worked for 3M and requested it. We called our Lava lab and they said they could do it. We stained them up best we could, but they looked like total junk...but the patient and doc got what they wanted.

I've had clients comment how nice the BruxZir crowns look considering it's 100% zirconia...... we always stain and then spray the glaze on with the airbrush.......however; always remember, the bulk of the dental market will buy 'strength' over 'esthetics' in the posterior region.......gold crowns proved that in the past but are now tooooo pricey for the bulk of the market.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Hopefully, we will have access to more products such as full contour zirconia crowns.

That would be nice, even though full contour zirconia looks like crap.

We called our Lava lab and they said they could do it. We stained them up best we could, but they looked like total junk...but the patient and doc got what they wanted.

They look like crap because you used the wrong material my friend. You got exactly what you should have expected.

 

[Alistar]

They look like crap because you used the wrong material my friend. You got exactly what you should have expected.

I know it was the wrong material buddy, and we went around in a circle with the doc and patient about it. They were 3M and HAD to have it. I tried asking them if they ment Lava DVS. No, they wanted FULL CONTOUR LAVA. I was as puzzled as you are. You ever manufactured one of those by chance? Just out of curiosity.

So, what are you guys charging for a BruxZir these days, Mark? I know you just got your mill going. I might throw it on our fee schedule.

 

[Mark Jackson]

I know it was the wrong material buddy, and we went around in a circle with the doc and patient about it. They were 3M and HAD to have it. I tried asking them if they ment Lava DVS. No, they wanted FULL CONTOUR LAVA. I was as puzzled as you are. You ever manufactured one of those by chance? Just out of curiosity.

So, what are you guys charging for a BruxZir these days, Mark? I know you just got your mill going. I might throw it on our fee schedule.

Actually I just got my SECOND BruxZir mill going. I've been doing them for two years. We charge $99.

Yes, we've milled some full contour Lava, just to see the difference. I'm working on an article. I'll show you soon what we ended up with

 

[JohnWilson]

God knows after that article 3m is going to hate you more Mark

I know you are thinking paybacks a bitch!

Glad Jimmy and the team has created a product that anyone can sell. Lets see how long its viable to the masses, not just the bigger highly invested labs.

At what point does the price point on this product get even cheaper? When the design library dictates the consistency/esthetics of the restoration and then all that differentiates us from the competition is how fast and how cheap we can be. How long before our margins are single digits? Is it like the old watermelon farmer joke...VOLUME???

I know you have been very open to the numbers but I still have not seen you post hard numbers on this product. I would love to see your cost analysis data now that you have it all ironed out over the last 2 years.

 

[lcmlabforum]

One question about the Struamann scan - does not solve the problem of the size of the blank I believe. We had a case that needed considerable angle correction and when the resident tried to send in the scan - it was beyond the size of the block to be milled and it had to be cast the conventional way.
I am surprised Mark had not commented on using Lava coping material for full contour as going out of protocol/GMP, unless it is the LAVA DVS Full contour crown material? How is that one compared with the Bruxir in terms of translucency? The picture on the web looked decent.
LCM

 

[JohnWilson]

Actually 3m has FDA for their FCZ, one of the few that have it.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Interestingly enough, 3M has backed off on the full contour YZ. Their website doesn't show anything, and I couldn't get any firm answers on the phone about it. I'm thinking they may have decided to license the formula from Glidewell after all? Based on my experiements, it would be a good idea

John, I'm not trying to piss anybody off. This business is too small to be going around burning bridges (that goes BOTH ways by the way).

As for the long term viability of BruxZir, you know the material we use now is the HT2.0, and there is Generation2 Nano in development. If Glidewell is smart, it will be released just as the BruxZir product reaches the top of the bell curve and the counterfeits start to eat into marketshare.

And, well, we know they understand the market better than most. That's about all I can say on the subject.