InLab Study Club on Facebook

[Mark Jackson]

Interesting thing happened on the Facebook Forum for InLab. I was asked to "friend" it, which I did. Having done so, I began to get posts, and decided to participate in discussions there. Since I had an In-Lab here, I felt qualified to comment, and even start a few threads.

If I posted anything that somehow was deemed to be negative about InLab, even when posted in an objective manner, it gets moderated, or in one case, completely removed.

Why would you want to sit around and have a cirlce jerk, and make each other feel good and not speak openly about a systems strengths and weaknesses, and talk about new materials and technology?

I GET IT, that it's a club started by someone and therefore subject to their rules and preferences, but why invite someone to join and then censor their posts? Something odd about people who drink the CEREC Koolaid and can't be open to conversations that challenge your insecurities.

 

[doug]

so where's the link for all of us to participate?

 

[charles007]

Mark, I have always thought there was an enter circle that protects cerec users for many years.....maybe it comes free with the Dongles. Doesn't surprise me at all that cerec users or in-lab users would delete or bash anything posted negative. After all, they swear by the great fits, contacts, occlusion, and contours ....You really can't argue with perfection.
I guess you could say that Cerec got the ball rolling in cad/cam for labs, and in turn, the cad/cam systems made for labs raised the bar to such a high level that Cerec is now years behind in many ways.
We are all benefiting from the fact that Cerec can't mill emax that well, and I hope that emax has a long shelf life, if for no other reason. Lets now give 3 cheers for dongles and the lab techs that were smart enough to not buy the unlimited dongles with their systems.
Don't loose to much sleep over that Study Club, after all, it's not a real Study Club when you can't speak out and talk about the problems you had with in-lab.

 

[rkm rdt]

Cerec circle jerk?......ok, who brought the powder?

 

[JohnWilson]

Its human nature

When we make a substantial investment in anything in our life most of us feel we made a good decision post sale. Then sometimes comes byers remorse or what I call a "wising up period",


No one after dropping a 100k or more on ANYTHING wants to here that its shiit.

Cerec users are some of the most awkwardly uncomfortable clients that I have worked with over the years as their perception is often times not very focused.

Having Mark Jackson friended and then moderated does not surprise me, like you said its their party, bring a good wine or go home.

 

[Flipperlady]

Its human nature

When we make a substantial investment in anything in our life most of us feel we made a good decision post sale. Then sometimes comes byers remorse or what I call a "wising up period",


No one after dropping a 100k or more on ANYTHING wants to here that its shiit.

Cerec users are some of the most awkwardly uncomfortable clients that I have worked with over the years as their perception is often times not very focused.

Having Mark Jackson friended and then moderated does not surprise me, like you said its their party, bring a good wine or go home.

This whole subject involves the phsycology of dentists and I have a lot to say on that subject, however I've learned it's less headache if I dont so I'll just repeat what Jeane the Jeweler told me one time when I asked how to be succesful in the jewelry business. He said," never let a customer go away mad, always sell them something first!"

 

[harmonylab]

LoL. They call it a study club but it's more like an inlab salesman's club. Most of them sound like Sirona reps.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Its human nature

When we make a substantial investment in anything in our life most of us feel we made a good decision post sale. Then sometimes comes byers remorse or what I call a "wising up period",


No one after dropping a 100k or more on ANYTHING wants to here that its shiit.

Cerec users are some of the most awkwardly uncomfortable clients that I have worked with over the years as their perception is often times not very focused.

Having Mark Jackson friended and then moderated does not surprise me, like you said its their party, bring a good wine or go home.

Never told them they made the wrong choice. Example:

I responded to a guy who said CEREC rules, with their model milling. When he told me he spent 80 minutes milling a quadrant, I asked the logical question: "why would you tie up your mill for an hour and a half to cut a $20 model, when you could mill $1000 worth of BruxZir crowns in that same time?

The reply was deleted until I complained to him. Some were never put back up. It's not like I st around bashing anything, in fact, I probably shared more good, solid information than anybody else on that forum. I'm not taking away, but bringing-to the party.

The problem with inviting me to the party in the first place is I will probably not leave until the lights are out and I'm the only one left.

They really should have known

 

[harmonylab]

Never told them they made the wrong choice. Example:

I responded to a guy who said CEREC rules, with their model milling. When he told me he spent 80 minutes milling a quadrant, I asked the logical question: "why would you tie up your mill for an hour and a half to cut a $20 model, when you could mill $1000 worth of BruxZir crowns in that same time?

The reply was deleted until I complained to him. Some were never put back up. It's not like I st around bashing anything, in fact, I probably shared more good, solid information than anybody else on that forum. I'm not taking away, but bringing-to the party.

The problem with inviting me to the party in the first place is I will probably not leave until the lights are out and I'm the only one left.

They really should have known

$5,000 to upgrade so you can mill models, plus new burrs needed as well... plus the lack of accuracy... I can't see how it's very useful at all.

the way they're censoring, makes me think someone involved with Sirona is running things there.

 

[charles007]

There's a good chance that Mark knows a lot more than anyone else at the cerec party, and no one wants a Cerec party pooper. After all, its an educational Cerec in-lab Study Club for Koolaid drinkers.

 

[paulg100]

"If I posted anything that somehow was deemed to be negative about InLab, even when posted in an objective manner, it gets moderated, or in one case, completely removed."

Jeez, how i wish you could see the CEREC doctors forums, its a complete joke in the same way.

there is hardly any negative info in the forums, if you post anything negative you get jumped on, it was a joke.

and its full of guys showing work and blowing smoke up each others butts about how great it is, when it was laughable.

as soon as i saw that they had model milling comming i thought exactly the same, i can mill say 5 emax crowns in the same time as milling a silly little model, what on earth is the point.

 

[dentprof]

Interesting thing happened on the Facebook Forum for InLab. I was asked to "friend" it, which I did. Having done so, I began to get posts, and decided to participate in discussions there. Since I had an In-Lab here, I felt qualified to comment, and even start a few threads.

If I posted anything that somehow was deemed to be negative about InLab, even when posted in an objective manner, it gets moderated, or in one case, completely removed.

Why would you want to sit around and have a cirlce jerk, and make each other feel good and not speak openly about a systems strengths and weaknesses, and talk about new materials and technology?

I GET IT, that it's a club started by someone and therefore subject to their rules and preferences, but why invite someone to join and then censor their posts? Something odd about people who drink the CEREC Koolaid and can't be open to conversations that challenge your insecurities.

Mark- I don't know what happened to your post on the study group page. When you posted I did respond in what I considered legitimate discussion. It just seems odd that somebody that has never owned the system would be so passionate about being on a page for system owners (see page description). You say you had an inLab system so you feel your qualified. From what I understand somebody loaned you a red system for a short period and you never attended training for the system either. Not really a fair evaluation is it? It's really funny that you spend so much time slamming any product or system that you don't use (ie. inLab, Crystal Zirconium, etc.). Maybe thats your idea for marketing your services.

I understand that there are owners out there that are unhappy with their system. I also know there are many that are happy with their inLab system. Can you truthfully say that there is any system available today with 100% customer satisfaction? I certainly have not come across one yet.

I understand that you have extensive CAD/CAM experience. I just really don't understand why you are so set on trying to sound like an expert on a system you have so little experience with.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Someone pass the popcorn please...

Seriously, a Cerec sales weasel versus Mark Jackson, I wouldn't even waste my time Mr. Jackson. Some people are better left to their own accord and let Darwin take over.

 

[avillon]

I'm the founder of the inlab study club on facebook which was very helpful for means a new user, I had good experience with forte, Nobel, 3m st, strauman cares, and E4D, I never bash any system cause they all have pros and cons.
I met lots of resourceful ppl there and mark was one of them, he is very knowledgable and his posts were an addition to the group. I'm not here to defend te system it's not my job to do that.
Knowledge is good and new ideas from a different prospective are great, we need t know the negative things about our systems an pass it to the manufacturers to improve it.
As for marks posts; as I replied to him Ill look into that and I'll make sure it won't happen again, this group is for all users to improve their skills and get the most out of their systems. We have sales reps and advocates also in the group but they won't force any policies on us; I will not allow it.
Finally I understand marks frustration but the group has good ppl and I don't think "jerk circle" doesn't really describe us.

 

[DMC]

I can personaly say that I have disected the Sirona scan data and found the points of data are very very far apart.

The FACT that the Cerec system is outside of the tolerences of Dentistry can be proved in a court of law.

Do you want me to post some proof? It is clear as day! #1 worse scanner on the market. Impossible to have accurate data to get good fit. Does not matter how many time Mark could have been trained or read the manual.

It is not an accurate system. Have you ever heard of a Lava milling system being bashed or returned?? No. Because it was designed to work from the beginning. To start with, they use a 4uM scanner that costs $65k in the real world. It is the Comet XS from Stein Bichler optiks in Germany. I think the one ton mill has a mechanical resolution of around 1uM!! Pretty sweet huh?


When I get to work, I will show you a Cerec scan and tell you EXACTLY how far apart the data point are at the margin. You will not be able to defend your system on this site. Both of you have no clue what the fok you're talking about. LOL

I feel sorry for all who have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this crap system. Should be pulled from the market in the US IMO.

I have, and will again, import a cerec scan into Industrial CAD software and measure the exact distance between any two data points. I will post a screen shot. This is very hard evidence that you really can't ignore and is 100% correct. Are you ready for the truth??

When you have a smooth prep and very smooth margin, the software can get lucky and guess by using surrounding data points. This gives the impression that the system is working. But, throw in any irregular shape and the system will fail.



Scott

 

[paulg100]

"The FACT that the Cerec system is outside of the tolerences of Dentistry can be proved in a court of law."

I wish that was a given, maybe i could get me money back for being miss sold the system.

 

[BobCDT]

Hi Scott,
Well said!
I owned multiple cerec mills and scanners. Every time they came out with a new piece of equipment I was told it would resolve the problems I was having. We went through many training sessions and really tried to make it work. Unfortunately, w concluded the system did not meet the standards set by the ADA for marginal integrity and the stuff fit like ____. We have sold the system and taken a loss.
FYI we are fully automated and own and operate several mills, scanners and printers. We are now achieving excellent results. In conclusion, quality results stems from quality data in and quality output devices. Personal observation, Cerec is not a quality dental solution. The only thing we could use it for were temps.
B

 

[Alistar]

2 of our docs got a Cerec 3 years ago when Patterson was pushing them hard in the St.Paul/Minneapolis area. One was a very prominent account for us. We saw a loss of about $60k in work the first 6months. But as things played out the they realized they'd been over-sold.

These docs rarely use their systems anymore..and one of them said plainly "it's a piece of bleeping bleep". And that'd he'd never get the value he was promised out of his system. I think he had some unfriendly choice words with his Patterson rep as well.

Anyway...our lab has no more fear of lossing work to Cerec milling systems, and I pity the patients who have these restorations placed.

We have the new Strauman CS2 and do our milling through their center.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

I can personaly say that I have disected the Sirona scan data and found the points of data are very very far apart.

The FACT that the Cerec system is outside of the tolerences of Dentistry can be proved in a court of law.

Do you want me to post some proof? It is clear as day! #1 worse scanner on the market. Impossible to have accurate data to get good fit. Does not matter how many time Mark could have been trained or read the manual.

It is not an accurate system. Have you ever heard of a Lava milling system being bashed or returned?? No. Because it was designed to work from the beginning. To start with, they use a 4uM scanner that costs $65k in the real world. It is the Comet XS from Stein Bichler optiks in Germany. I think the one ton mill has a mechanical resolution of around 1uM!! Pretty sweet huh?


When I get to work, I will show you a Cerec scan and tell you EXACTLY how far apart the data point are at the margin. You will not be able to defend your system on this site. Both of you have no clue what the fok you're talking about. LOL

I feel sorry for all who have had the wool pulled over their eyes on this crap system. Should be pulled from the market in the US IMO.

I have, and will again, import a cerec scan into Industrial CAD software and measure the exact distance between any two data points. I will post a screen shot. This is very hard evidence that you really can't ignore and is 100% correct. Are you ready for the truth??

When you have a smooth prep and very smooth margin, the software can get lucky and guess by using surrounding data points. This gives the impression that the system is working. But, throw in any irregular shape and the system will fail.



Scott

I WOULD LOOOOOVE TO SEE THAT !!!!!

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

I'm talkin to a doctor today about 10 thin veneers on DARK tetracycline teeth......shade C10, final shade 2R1.5 !!! I got about 0.7mm to work with from the preps. Politely, we agree to ......"do the best I can".

Then I ask him how his new E4D system is going for him......he says "Great.....however, 6 months after I cement an eMax crown, it's going dark around the margins......what could that be James???"

Wow!!! I felt like shooting heroin to contain my energy...."Well Dr. , 2 things...... open margin and cement washout allowing something to grow under the ceramic......you need a better seal. "

Boy, I could think of alot of other things to spend that $150,000 on.....