Help Wanted CONTRACT DESIGNERS

[sidesh0wb0b]

Well, it all depends on your situation. Being close to retirement, my thoughts were to sit at home with just a computer and pick up some spare money. Digital files only, no scanning. Maybe design cases for all those Cerec dentists who can't keep any trained personnel on staff. All I would need is the computer and software, no milling machines, or office rent. Wouldn't have to deal with Health Inspections or CE requirements since I wouldn't be considered a laboratory...just a "Designer Guy" kind of like you being "The Lab Guy".

Just a thought for the digital age.

except designing for cerec docs means becoming cerec connected....and thats a costly adventure

 

[CoolHandLuke]

for you

 

[FrontHunter]

ID LOVE TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THIS TOPIC. BUMP...

SO

Answer This... What are your thoughts on a website that you could go sign up for and it was similar to facebook, or upwork or fiver ect. You can load some examples of your work and make an about me page and sell yourself to labs and doctors and doctors could go here and find technicians who are willing to design and possibly nest as well. Then send the file back and the website would have a sever built in that is hippa compliant and the doctor simply would load a scan into your que. You grab the intraoral scan or desktop scan design it, throw it back into the server and the client is automatically billed by the website and you get the money placed in your account at the end of every week.... The rules are simple, there is a minimum charge of 5$ per unit and you must use our file exchange server/system and billing software ect. You can advertise or promote a basic design a premium design and then also have different prices for different turn around times, example a 30 min, a 4 hour, an 8 hour, ect. You can offer add on services like one free change per design at the request of the client or for a fee you can allow the doctor and if needed or wanted the patient screensharing while you design thier smile/crown. You would be free to go out and market to dentists, however you must run it all through the website, which has advantages for all involved in my mind, First the dentist must have a valid Credit Card on file to submit a scan or the case will not be sent. Also the website will keep track of all your finances and case records as well. The website would also offer the software to buy or to rent and you can pick whatever ones you would like. This could be something you simply do 1 or two times per week or you could do it for a part-time or a full time job. The other benefit of using this site would be the marketing and traffic driven to the website, you get your services out infront of doctors who just bought an intraoral and not sure what to do next and like i said before, they have to pay the same second they send the file if not they dont get the design. There would also be prefered milling centers or labs that you could send the finished file to for milling and finishing ect. The possibilities are endless. But ultimately the doctors are starting to look at buying small mills when they buy an IO scanner .....think dwx 50 and such and they dont have time to mess with it at all. Just have the assistant order some discs and send you the serial codes on them, they will go into the software / website and you just get off work go grab your scans, design, look at the doctors stock of discs/ consumables, nest the units, send them back and the dental assistant or offfice girl goes and grabs the right number disc or block and throws it in the mill wam bam, the doctor either has the assistant spray glaze all the posteriors or he goes in for an hour on the weekend and does some staining and glazing. Obviously this could be done at so many levels but the rules would be simple, dont send files without going through the server, and you cant go less than 5$ a unit. I mean you could do a live design and charge the doc 50$ for the unit and be done in 10 mins and his life is basically a little bit of staining and glazing, and as long as you help him get his mill calibrated to your design settings and get the contacts and occlusion close he has no model to deal with and if he wants one it gets sent out for printing.

SO BEFORE YOUR REPLY THAT THIS IS ALREADY OUT THERE, AND SAY CROWN BOX ALREADY DOES THIS AND THAT THERE IS NO POINT TO IT, I WANT TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS WHOLE SITUATION BECAUSE YES I KNOW THERE IS FULL CONTOUR OUT THERE AKA DROPDENTAL.COM AND FULLCONTOURDENTAL.COM BUT THEY DONT SERVICE DOCTORS AND THEY DONT ALLOW THE CLIENT TO TALK TO THE DESIGNER!!!!! THIS IS A WAY TO GIVE DOCTORS A TAYLOR MADE SERVICE AND ULTIMATELY THE PATIENT A BETTER PRODUCT. IT WOULD BE FREE TO SIGN UP AND LITERALLY WOULD BE ALMOST IDENTICAL TO FACEBOOK MIXED WITH A LITTLE DROP DENTAL AND AMAZON AND EBAY.... DOCTORS COULD POST CASES FOR PEOPLE TO BID ON OR EVEN SUBMIT THE DESIGN AND HE GETS TO PICK THE BEST DESIGN ECT... (AGAIN DONT FREAK OUT THESE ARE ALL JUST THOUGHTS AND BRAINSTORMING) BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT A PATIENT AND DOC WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THIS SITUATION BELOW POSSIBLE....

SO THE DOCTOR HAS A PATIENT THAT IS HAVING A FULL MOUTH OR AT MINIMUM 4-8 ANTERIORS DONE FOR COSMETIC REASONS. SO THE DOCTOR HAS THE PATIENT COME IN AND ALL THEY DO IS A 5 MINUTE SCAN OF THE PATIENTS MOUTH, NO SHOTS NO PREPING NO NOTHING, JUST A SCAN, HE SENDS IT TO HIS FAVORITE CONTRACT PROCESSOR AND THEN YOU GRAB THE SCAN DESIGN THE PROVISIONALS WITH THE MARGINS JUST BARELY SUB G OR RIGHT AT THE GING. CREST THEN JUST LET THE DESIGN SIT UNTILL THE PATIENT IS RESCHEDULED FOR PREPPING. SO THE PATIENT COMES BACK IN AND YOU COULD EVEN HAVE THE DOC MILL OUT A COUPLE OF DIAGNOSTIC MODELS TO SELL THE PATIENT ON ACCEPTING THE TREATMENT PLAN. JUST LIKE A BEFORE AND AFTER DIAGNOSTIC THAT WE WAX OR USED TO WAX AND MAKE A TEMP STINT WITH. THEN THE DOCTOR STARTS TO PREP, AND REMEMBER YOU HAVE ALREADY DESIGNED THE WHOLE CASE AND EVERY UNIT ALREADY SO WHEN HES DONE PREPING ALL YOU DO IS GO IN TO THE SCAN MARK THE FRESHLY CUT MARGINS AND THEN PULL YOUR DESIGN THAT YOU ALREADY DID WITH THE PREOP SCAN IN AND MESH IT TO THE NEW MARGINS. DO SOME MINOR TWEAKS, SEND THE NESTED FILE TO THE DOC AND HE CAN GRAB A MULTILAYERED/MULTISHADED pmma DISK PUT IT IN THE MACHINE AND PUSH START. THE TEMPS TAKE ABOUT 15 TO 20 MINS EACH TO MILL OUT. THE PATIENT STAYS IN THE CHAIR WATCHES A MOVIE AND THEN .................

BAM!!!!!!!!!! THE DOC CAN CUT OUT THE UNITS, POLISH THEM, MAYBE LIGHTCURE GLAZE THEM TO ADD SOME CHARACTER ECT. AND THE PATIENT HAS GORGEOUS, STRONG, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY INDIVIDUAL TEMPS, SO THAT THE PERIODONTAL LIGAMANTS ARE FREE TO MOVE AROUND WHILE THE PATIENT IS CHEWING ECT.....THE PATIENT WEARS THEM FOR A WEEK OR SO DEPENDING ON IF THERE IS ANY CROWN LENGTHENING OR ANY NEED TO OPEN THE BITE UP AND GIVE THE PATIENT TIME TO LET THIER BODY AND MOUTH ADJUST TO THE NEW OCCLUSION. THEN THEY COME BACK IN AND GIVE THE DOCTOR FEEDBACK ON WHAT THEY LIKE AND DONT LIKE, (OR JUST CALL) THEN YOU MAKE SOME MINOR CHANGES IF THE PATIENT OR DOCTOR WANTS AND YOU CAN HAVE THE CROWNS DONE AS SOON AS LATER THAT DAY OR THE NEXT. ECT.


SOOOO here is the big thing that sucks about getting any cosmetic work done as a patient. First its usually painfull (at least for me because i burn off anasesia like its gas on a fire, also having 6 or 8 units made into temps by the doctor injecting lightcure or dualcure temp material into a siltec matrix or temp stint made with lab putty IS THE WORST FEELING EVER!!! imagine not having your teeth able to move freely while you chew and your pario ligaments are all splinted togeather....(it sucks and people usually break temps cause of this reason exactly.

Also the PMMA is so good now that you can polish it in one minute and it looks just as good as a monolithic lisi pressed crown. and the patient gets awesome temps that are perfectly sealed at the margin and can be worn long term, they look great and they most importantly feel amazing.

THIS IS JUST ONE SCENERIO THAT YOU COULD CHARGE A PREMIUM FOR AND PATIENTS WOULD PAY IT AND SO WOULD DOCS.

THIS IS WHERE WE ARE HEADING AND A WEBSITE AND SERVICE LIKE THIS COULD BE SUCH A GREAT THING FOR ALL OF US. DESIGN AS MUCH OR AS LITTLE AS YOU WANT AND CHARGE WHAT YOU WANT AND NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT GETTTING PAID OR CALLING A CLIENT ASKING TO PAY THIER BILL......


SO RIP IT TO SHREDS OR LET ME KNOW ANYTHING, BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE IT BUILT, I HAVE THE COMPANY SET UP AND I WANT TO SEE THE RESPONSE...WOULD YOU SIGN UP? WOULD YOU MAKE ALL YOUR DESIGNERS IN YOUR LAB SIGN UP AND DO THE WORK WHILE THEY ARE CLOCKED IN AT YOUR LAB AND ALLOW THEM TO DO IT ON THE SIDE AS WELL..??????

IM SO CLOSE TO LAUNCHING THIS BUT I JUST WANT TO FEEL OUT THE MARKET TO SEE WHO WOULD DO WHAT AND HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD SIGN UP AND HOW OFTEN THEY WOULD GO TO DOCS OFFICES AND TRY TO GET NEW WORK. THINK ABOUT THIS PART TOO. YOU CAN RENT THE SOFTWARE FROM THE COMPANY/WEBSITE IF YOU DONT WANT TO BUY IT, ALSO YOU CAN OFFER A PERSONALIZED SERVICE THAT IS UNIQE TO WHAT YOU THINK DOCS NEED.

IM SURE LAB OWNERS WILL LASH OUT ON THIS BUT YOU CAN USE AND BENEFIT FROM IT TOO. SERIOUSLY THE RISE OF THE MACHINES HAS BEEN GREAT BUT MOST DENTISTS WILL AGREE THAT THEY HAVE SEEN A MAJOR SHIFT IN CONSISTANTCY IN THE WORK THEY GET BACK BECAUSE ALL DESIGNERS ARE DIFFERENT AND ALL LABS USE DIFFERENT LIBRARIES, AS WELL AS TECHS AND DESIGNERS WITHIN THE LAB ITSELF.

ANOTHER BENEFIT, STORAGE AND FILE LOADING SPEED. THIS IS ALL CLOUD BASED SO ALL YOUR WORK AND DESIGNS AND SCANS AND ACCOUNTING IS SAFE IN THE CLOUD. IM JUST THINKING HOW EASY DOING YOUR TAXES WOULD BE AT THE END OF THE YEAR WITH HAVING ALL THE FINACIALS RIGHT THERE AND ALL YOUR COSTS ECT.

IM EVEN LOOKING FOR PARTNERS ON THIS AND WOULD LOVE TO TALK ON THE PHONE OR IN PERSON ANYTIME BUT COMMENT AWAY!

 

[CoolHandLuke]

THE DOC CAN CUT OUT THE UNITS

stop right there, ive heard enough.

i'm out.

 

[2thm8kr]

I have been doing model less abutment and temp cases for a few years and single crown designs for about 6+ years.
Your idea is solid however having dealt with inexperienced office staff who have no idea about digital dentistry or computers in general, there is a whole can of worms
to deal with. I don't want to be the remote CAM engineer, there will be conflicts between you (designer) and the support team from whoever they
purchased the equipment from. Getting a clean scan from some offices is as bad or worse than getting a clean usable PVS impression so merging preop
and post op can be challenging.
As far as the patient sitting around taking up chair space for a few hours while a 6 unit case mills then is cut out and polished. Most offices don't
want to tie up their chairs for that long.
I could sit here and think of all the things we have run into, but I don't have a lot of extra time today.

On the positive side, being able to preview the scans and see what type of office you may or may not get involved with is a huge plus.
You idea of getting paid up front via credit card is what we do. This is a great way to keep track of finances and monthly billing is eliminated.
This also keeps the majority of deadbeats away.

 

[FrontHunter]

ok you totally missed the boat luke jr. and i want your opinion more than most on this whole idea. But the doc does not have to do anything, this is just one way that someone could post a service to differentiate themself from other designers. Just like you could offer to have the doctor on chat and teamviewer or the phone while your designing for a certain price..


The designer does not have to have the doctor mill the file, its just an option....you can send the file to a lab of your choice (even your own lab if your using this service to promote your labs designers and using it to offer value added services and another tool for doctors and designers to communicate, or for the guy who gets home and does this for and hour or 2 per night he can send the file the doctors lab of choice that is nearby or let the doctor deal with that and just send the file and be done, which is honestly the goal here is to streamline the process for docs and techs and improve the quality of our product and improve patient care.)

PS I have Doctors asking for the same visit PMMA milled temps regularly and they say that they will pay as much as they have to because patients hate wearing connected temps for more than a day or two.

 

[zero_zero]

@FrontHunter TRY TO AVOID USING ALL CAPS, IT IS HARDER TO READ AND IS CONSIDERED SHOUTING...

 

[FrontHunter]

I agree but once the teeth are cut they doc can get them out of the chair see the next paitent send that paitent out to the waiting room while the temps mill.... LOOK THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF A SERVICE YOU COULD POST TO YOUR PROFILE TO DIFFERENTIATE YOURSELF. Just one.

LOOK Lets talk about the fact that there is going to be a workflow like this whether we want it or not. The technology is driving it there and for us to all sit back rigidly and just say no no no no no we would be putting ourselves behind the 8ball and really not skating to where the puck is "going to be" not to where the puck is.

You can offer to do a single unit for 7 dollars but for an extra 5 you could literally design the patients initials on the inside of the crown, or like i said allow them to watch via teamviewer. Dont get stuck on the minor tiny details here. I have done an assload of model less crowns and have printed and milled tiny solid cast models to check contacts ect. I know that this is all not anything new but the ceramist is becoming obsolete unfortunately ( except for the docs who appreciate nice depth and lots of layering). But again this is off topic.

Im talking about the CROWN IN A BOX day that we are all heading towards, and we can embrace it or fight it and im getting to be much more like water as i grow old....go with the flow and find the path of least resistance.

the conversation here is? what do you offer to doctors as a designer that makes you better than what they would get back from the lab down the street or big jims lab where im sure hes found and employed Oompa Loompas by now.

Seriously would anyone get online sign up just like face book and make a profile, and respond to a doctor when he sent you a response or question about what you can do?

 

[FrontHunter]

Oops sorry about the all caps, my phone decided to jump onto the concrete this weekend and it gets stuck with caps lock on. Anyways no im not shouting, so sorry if anyone took it that way.

 

[2thm8kr]

So what are the costs involved for using a site like yours?
Really wait until the end of the week for $? I get mine at the end of the day, everyday already.

 

[FrontHunter]

Well as long as I can remember I have been getting my money from all my accounts at the beginning of every month. But ya it would be really easy to make the money deposit at the end of the day instead of the end of week.

The one thing i have not decided on is what the cost is for using the site and im open to suggestions, it needs to be able to make some money to support the server and pay for the storage and site maintainance, so we have talked about talking a percentage, or just making the money on advertising, or charging the Dr.s or who is sending the scans a monthly subscription fee or both people a small percentage of each transaction.

I mean really the idea is not to get rich by starting the website its to provide our community a way to not get replaced by a machine one day and to make a little extra money and most importantly is to provide the best quality of service we can to docs and patients.

 

[Jenners]

It's an idea, but I don't like the idea of working with doctors directly. I'd rather catch overflow from a lab that catches bad preps, poor impressions, etc, before sending the file over. The other part I'm not liking is the bidding aspect. I've seen sites do this with artists and it causes a bidding war straight to the bottom. Of course, this is just a personal opinion of someone that's remained a lowly tech....

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

def not a fan for the bidding side.
i do like the idea of another source of work, and could easily see myself or my tech jumping over once or twice or more often per day and cranking out some crowns. theres already a similar idea being used out there by cerec connect labs/drs, so this isnt completely new.

biggest concerns:
1. cost for the labs and drs. it has to make sense for BOTH. not just a cheap ass way for drs to cut more corners and put more and more cheap sh!t in the mouth.
2. responsibility....who makes the phone calls when theres no occlusal clearance? or when margins are beyond verifiable?
3. pay needs to be immediate upon completion. no waiting 30-60-90+ days. fee for service. we complete, we get paid. every case. not monthly, not weekly, not daily.

 

[FrontHunter]

Nice,
These are all things that i have been wanting to hear. I agree with the bidding could cause a price drive to the floor. However i think doctors should be able to post a scan and technicians can look at it and if they want the case they can just send the doctor a treatment plan for the case and the pricing would just have to fall within the set price for the service that that technician/designer originally sets when they open thier profile. I know that alot of technicians will just look at crappy scans and not want anything to do with it while thier are others who want that work that they will talk to the doctor and get him to take a new scan or figure out the solution for that tech to get the case.

Just like on upwork, I can post a job on there asking for someone to do pretty much anything for me and also post my budget and then various freelancing skilled people can submit a proposal.

This is not a plan to drive pricing down this is a solution that is going to help fight off the dropping price of crowns and is not for drs or labs or techs who want to do work for dirt cheap. Like I said for a single posterior molar i was thinking of imposing a minimum 5 to 10 dollar design fee. Which cant be over ridden and the drs credit card is ran when the case is accepted by a technician and then the funds are released 24 hours after the design is sent back to the doc.

This way the doc only has 24 hours or 8 or whatever we come up with to ask for any changes ect. After the file is submitted the money is then paid to the designer immediately and then can be cashed out via ach transfer, check, money order, venmo, or paypal ect.

Side Show to specifically adress your concerns this is a way for doctors to get consistent quality and know what they will get back at least from a design point and they need to be willing to pay for that personal attention and service that the tech they send files to is going to be giving them. The idea is to attract doctors that care and show them that they actually save time and money when they are having high quality designs milled ( as it removes one more variable in the whole scan design mill process that most labs use. By them being able to find a designer who they like and is communicating with them enough and not too much and does things the way they like everytime, the doc does not need to worry about sending a file out to cap and hoping that thier best designer gets it and not a new hire who has 4 months experience.

As far as #2 it is the responsibility of the designer who decides to accept the scan to be involved in the problem to a certain degree. Of course if the scan is bad you can reject it and point out why, you dont have to call you can just click reject select the reason and send the file back and the doc will get an alert. However when the doc has issues with the crowns and he approves the design he then needs to communicate what the issue is to the lab or person or part that millled or printed the restoration. Because if its perfect on screen and then has issues going in the odds are the mill is off and needs either burrs or callibration and if its shade then its up to the doc and milling lab.

This is why this service is so needed because it will force responsibility to be taken for the case for each step. No more is it ope sorry i dropped the crown on the ground but im not going to tell you that, im just going to send it back and claim it was too high. This will put checks and balances in place and ultimately the designer will need to communicate with the milling center manager to get the restorations coming off the machines and not needing to be adjusted at all. The big thing here is getting doctors consistancy, not just a 99 dollar crown, if they want that send it over to willy wonka and have them make it. But I know alot of Dr's and Labs that cant get a consistant design to save thier life and labs struggle to find designers who are good, fast, and know what they are doing.

I believe i covered my idea on number 3 but I get your point and i feel its fair that the doc should get about 8 to 24 hours once the design is done to request changes ( something like up to 2 for free mandatory then after that there is a redesign fee....? that is something the designer could agree to do or not to do but the company and website can enforce price floors and payment regulations ect. so if a doc is needy then the designer has the freedom to either deal with him for free because they feel keeping the acccount is worth it. If not they can tell the doc sorry but i have already made 2 changes since the original design submission so if you want it changed you need to do it yourself or you need to pay me another 10$ or whatever thier policy is.

We as a company just set pricing floors and payment deadlines, followed by enforcing them and doing all the CC processing ect.

There will be variables that come up but what lab have you ever seen that has no problems ever with any case ( is the stance we are taking).

This wont be for everyone, but it for sure will be for alot of people.

I have managed 2 labs and 2 milling centers in my career and im telling you that good designers are almost impossible to find and hire. So now labs can use this service as thier overflow and dont need to use places like fullcontour where the case goes to china and it could come back perfect or it could come back looking like a puckered cats ass.

This is for people who appreciate quality and consistancy, our market is not these fill and drill wam bam thank you mam accounts. We dont plan on getting any traction or business from the labs or doctors that cut corners, guess where margins are, have never used a microscope, or are in thier backyard with a box of powdered scrap zirc pressing thier own discs in a machine they bought on ebay for 20 bucks.


Its alot to type out because there will be variables however, the industry has a space where the lack of solid designers exists, and we believe this is an very viable solution.

I worry about labs and designers getting into arguements about their designs being changed but there has got to be a way to put some sort of qc check and balcance in place to stop that from occuring.

If your cutting your contacts and occlusion to .01 every single time and things are fitting all over the place then obviously it can be tracked down to the milling end. So that would just need to be a setting that can be checked or recorded somehow which is not a big deal to write some type of code to store what the contacts and occlusion were set to be at.

 

[2thm8kr]

The problem with finding competent designers has everything to do with lack of practical dental lab experience and proper understanding of occlusion and function.
Being able to look at the forensic evidence on a model or scan is just one of the skills most computer gamers have no idea about. CAD makes it easy to design something that resembles a tooth, but it takes a real technician to make it look like a tooth and function like it belongs in the patient's mouth.

Personally, I wouldn't bother bidding on work. I would rather have a known place to post the case designs from digital dx and implant planning all the way down
to single crown designs and possibly ortho cases I have done for aligner treatments. This allows doc's who are looking for something specific to find designers
that have skill sets in the areas of their needs.

 

[NevaNeverever]

It is a great idea and working with dentists is really not so bad i'm doing designs for dentists all over the world . sometimes yes ,you should do some adjustments , but the information that you get from dr is the most important to do a nice design . my speciality are anteriors . only aesthetical restautations and really cant begin without good pictures and info . if you make a certain protocol for the files you would like to receive from dr . everything works just great ! If you need a good designer , here i am just let me know

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Archos 55 Diamond 2 Plus met Tapatalk

 

[TheLabGuy]

For frontrunner....Brevility is the soul of wit my man!!!

 

[FrontHunter]

Honestly Rob you probably just had the best post in the thread.

 

[FrontHunter]

Your right 2th, and you could use the site for exactly that. I think im going to go ahead and pull the trigger on the site, the name is still up in the air but i will let you guys know when its up and feel free to come check it out and set up a profile. I think its a coin toss in regards to how succesfull it will be.

 

[rkm rdt]

quit talking and start chalking!